Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Back in March, I went down to the Lake Okeechobee area in Florida and brought home a WC gravid FL King. She laid 8 eggs and so far two have completely emerged while two others are currently sticking their heads out of the eggs. One is your typical looking FL King.

The other one is this.

And it has a completely solid black belly.

Since this is my first time ever hatching out FL Kings, I was wondering how unusual this.

The top two look more like eastern kings to me rather the Florida.

They're definitely Floridas, You don't see easterns with the bands that close together.

I have just recently gotten into king snakes so I can make a mistake Anyway thanks for the tip telling them apart! I would definately hold onto the last little guy..he is a very cool looking king.

np

The orange makes me automatically think Goini, I don't know much about the range of Getula subspecies in general.........but Okeechobee is huge. Were you near the northern or southern end or somewhere in the middle? I am interested to hear what some others will say about this. I'd like to see the snake that laid the eggs too. Tom

...

Or take some more pics. But she is 100% Florida King. She was found just south of Lake Okeechobee and since the Apalachicola King's range is very small and located in the panhandle region of Florida, I don't think it's possible there is any influence.

at Gulf Coast or Bill Love to see if they recall this. Chris McQuade may actually even have some in one of his groups of breeding Florida Kings as he was working with a high red line for years that might have come from something that you have.

Years ago (about 10 - 12) there were some kings floating around said to be from the southern region of that area as well that were being sold as HIGH RED phase Florida Kings. Even Crutchfield had them on his lists. These were said to be CH. Difference though is when two of the adult pics started floating around they appeared to be what "some" would consider "Brooksi" (and not a typical female as you state) yet that would be pretty far north of what some consider their range. I personally found the adults represented showing more abberancy in their pattern then typically seen at the time of both Florida and said "Brooksi". Now though after experiencing the boom of hypo "Brooksi" available abberancy in them seems to be prevalent.

On a sadder note others then added the possibility of outside influence being released to the area as well. I personally did not think much of that thought myself, at the time. These days though it has become common knowledge that MANY of the more established breeders regularly did just that when they were starting out. If something did not feed or there was no market, they were released. Probably done with more frequency now as well with non-feeders and poor sellers, especially in Florida.

Anyway, I would try them for info. as they have seen much that has come out of the wilds of Florida and may be able to give some better insight as I only had experience with the individuals that were put up for market afterwards (meaning not the keepers).

Regards, Rich Hebron

Rich, you are absolutely correct. I know of MANY Florida breeders that annually release surplus livestock into the wild. Kings, corns, rats, etc. Like you said, whatever they can't sell or whatever will not eat get's released. I don't particularly agree with this, but it happen quite often.

Brandon Osborne

"Nobody" lives out in that area of Florida... I doubt that breeders would go out of their way just to release their surplus into the canefields.

the canal that this king was found on was way off the beaten track. Someone would have to go to a lot of trouble to release them there.
This is just a very lucky coincidence for Sean.

harm in checking with other breeders and collectors. That was but only one part of my original post. There were many kings that looked as that one does over the years on the market. It is only rare to those that have never seen one before.

Personally, with all due respect I feel a true hobbyist would be more concerend with the possibility. Wouldn't one want to consider to at least learn more about the possibility instead of the presumption of what one wants it to be.

Rich Hebron

But I don't think there have been that many WILD CAUGHT Florida kings that look like that. True, I have seen 'goini' produced in captivity that sort of look like that. But very, very few Floridas. And I have been collecting Florida kings for almost thirty years and have hatched, or seen hatched countless numbers of them from W/C parents. During this time I have only seen a handful of aberrant ones (including hypos and the so called 'flame' types even though in the 70's we didn't have designer names for them!).
Also, if you have been to the area south of Lake Okee and hunted it, you realize that there are hundreds upon hundreds of little canals spaning at least 4 large counties, that harbor Florida kings. Even if there are some moronic 'breeders'who are releasing captive animals out there, the possiblity of them going all the way out to where these canals are is just too remote to consider. Plus, I wouldn't 'check' with them anyway since these are highly productive canals and I would never disclose their location to someone who is that idiotic.

I want to stress the point too that during the past twenty years more and more oddball patterns and color morph have shown up with all of the Florida kings (brooksi, goini and 'Florida') but isn't this really the result of inbreeding, line breeding or crosses? The number of actually W/C (or produced from wild breeding as in Sean's case) aberrant kings is still very small.
It may only seem like there have been a fair number as now we have forums like this one and other avenues to share photos on. Also, there are WAY more people working with and hunting these kings now than there used to be.

as I stated previously I personally have seen kings that resemble that individual. I never said many kings but a few like you have stated. Exactly why they appear the way they do would only be a guess for me. With all your experience with working with Florida herps you could probably come up with a much better explanation then myself as to why. That is actually more my interest here. The herp in question.

With regards though to other breeders and such for info. I personally would never disclose such detailed info. on where these were located myself. I would not lump all the more experienced herpers that have collected in Florida as those that have released herps back into the wild as well. If my previous post came out like that it was not intentional. A few have though but not all of them.

Good to see someone with all the field experience as you have posting here. I was starting to think this forum had become alienated by most all of those that have experienced first hand the dramatic environmental changes this State has encountered and its affect on native herp populations.

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

And one that I don't have an answer for except that genetic diversity exists and sometimes these oddballs pop up.
I do remember seeing a couple of patternless, solid red hatchling Florida kings from a clutch of eggs around 1979. They were from a female who was caught by Paul Krolzyk in the West Boynton Beach area. The next year, Paul caught another female there that also produced one or two of these red, patternless hatchlings.

many believe they are doing the herps a favor by finding out of the way places where people do not reside where as to release these herps.

is what it is and as I hear usually done in out of the way places where many people think they are doing the herps a favor (long drives on weekend trips and such with the family). I perosnally do not condone such behavior of releasing s8uch herps myself yet never the less it is done with more regularity and is always a possibility that needs to be considered in such situations.

I am glad though to see someone actually read my entire post LOL.

Regards, Rich Hebron

If that were the case, ALL the offspring would look similar. This seems to be something gentic as only two out of 6 are aberrant.

in my opinion based on this one WC female. It still could be genetic if the population area she was taken from had been influenced by some oddity previously. She could be carrying the genes as was whatever mated with her to produce the abberancy. Not all the hatchlings would exhibit the trait just as not all het for albino "anything" mated together produce all offspring that are albino. For example possibly only 2 or 3 may be albino out of 6 hatchlings.

Be interesting to see if when implemented into a breeding project if this breeds true.

Regards.........

Not the greatest but it will do.

Do you remember around which city that king came from?

Yes. It was southeast of Clewiston.

That's the area where I've seen the most variability, from black to brown to nicely speckled, high red, and a patternless belly.

I'm impressed! I would definitely hold on to him/her. Let me know if anymore are like that.

So far the other two poking their heads out look normal. I saw all the red on that first one before it completely emerged from the egg and thought nothing of it. But now I'm hopefully awaiting another comes out the same.

from any typical Florida Kings we have ever hatched out over the years. Amazing size as well. The proportions of the last pic leave me to believe you should have no trouble getting this one on very large pinks as well. Some of the 2003 hatchlings we have here do not appear to be that girthy or have heads as large as the individual in that pic. They must have been LARGE eggs. Then again its all relative as I do not yet know the size of your hand. How large is the adult female?

So contrasting a difference between the two hatchlings so far emerged that it would be interesting as stated above previously if possible for a pic of the adult female to be posted. See if anyone might notice any direct influence the female may have that directly led to that (look/pattern) color since there is no male for us to see. Its definitely different when you consider she came from a regular Florida King.

Will wonders never cease......

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

I cant believe it man that is freakin' awesome ! Thats a killer looking baby . I dont know what to say about it except is that the one your sending me lol ! Cant wait to see the rest of the clutch.

P.s. Dont even think about getting rid of that adult female now like you mentioned the other night.
-----

I think I'll be holding onto that one Keith. And I guess the mother two. And a male since that abberant one looks like it's a female also. Heck I may just have to hold onto all of them...lol.

That is an awesome snake. Definitely a keeper.
-----
Tim

np

could be a rare find in this day and age since you stated it came from a normal appearing WC adult female from that area. My above post may lead clarity for those really interested in what you have if they try and contact Sheila at Gulf Coast or Bill Love to see if they recall this. Chris McQuade may actually even have some in one of his groups of breeding Florida Kings as he was working with a high red line for years that might have come from something that you have. I have added more to the above post intergrated in the repost that follows.

Florida Kings once heavily occupated many of Florida's largest collectors time ,in it's hey day with much attention given to locale then as you are attemtpting to do today. It occupied much after hour discussions between all of them while attendance at the first Florida shows.

It's truley a shame most turn a blind eye now to discussing with many of the newer collectors what was once common place. We all lose on that just as most specific locale herps have lost their existence. You are definitely at an extreme disadvantage today compared to say at a time before alligator alley was made a super highway for example. There is much you will unfortunately never see in the wild especially in the numbers that were seen in any given day that could be spotted during that era.

Payne's prairie for example was an amazing place to spot not only numerous kings but all sorts of herps. Try to spot a king there now or anywhere in Gainesville for that matter. I know there are many large herp breeders that even scoff at giving time to such chatter and I have seen first hand why with unfortunately much of that mentality now being spread down to newer herpers. Give some of them a try though with an open mind and we may all benefit as they are all not that way, just tired.

Years ago (about 10 - 12) there were some kings floating around said to be from the southern region of that area as well that were being sold as HIGH RED phase Florida Kings. Even Crutchfield had them on his lists. These were said to be CH. Difference though is when two of the adult pics started floating around they appeared to be what "some" would consider "Brooksi" (and not a typical female as you state) yet that would be pretty far north of what some consider their range. I personally found the adults represented showing more abberancy in their pattern then typically seen at the time of both Florida and said "Brooksi". Now though after experiencing the boom of hypo "Brooksi" available abberancy in them seems to be prevalent.

On a sadder note others then added the possibility of outside influence being released to the area as well. I personally did not think much of that thought myself, at the time. These days though it has become common knowledge that MANY of the more established breeders regularly did just that when they were starting out. If something did not feed or there was no market, they were released. Probably done with more frequency now as well with non-feeders and poor sellers, especially in Florida.

Anyway, I would try them for info. as they have seen much that has come out of the wilds of Florida over the past 30 years in some cases and may be able to give some better insight as I only had experience with the individuals that were put up for market afterwards (meaning not the keepers) during the same period.

Regards, Rich Hebron

I just like it - lol.
-----
Tim

much is reason for it being likeable. This snake has a look that does stand out...

Rich Hebron

Hey Sean, remind me to NEVER give you any more snakes that I catch!

If I remember correctly, I chose only to take one of those gravid females. Looks like I made the right choice huh. So have you ever seen anything like this pop up before?

n/p

I have personally seen several like this over the years. Question to me is not really on it being unique as much as why the look. That is what interests me. Many thoughts on what it could be and what it can become but I of course do not know.

Rich Hebron

I have to say Sean, that is one awesome snake. I've only seen it pop up in Apalachicola X Floridana breedings. I hope it's all Floridana and nothing else. It's truly a beautiful snake. Good luck with it.

Brandon Osborne

Should have read this post before typing my previous two and said "Ditto...np"

Rich Hebron