Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OKay day before yesterday a boy brought an Eastern Box turtle ( she from what i can dervive/she over fills my palm entirely so she is of breeding age im sure ) to our house claming he had had it for a while and wishing to give it away.. since we can not find out where he found it to put it back and plus fear he will again capture the poor girl .. because of his mistreatment of the turtle ( feeding hot wings and droping her off tables because she liked doing back flips ) i DO NOT want him to get his hands on her ever again!!!!! * coughs* sorry i get a little tiffles when people are so mean

Anyways yesterday i went out and got all the ingredients for a temporary 50 gallon box .. i still need plants ( if any one knows any good ones that turtles can eat please let me know because they will probubly end up out side with the girly when we move to our new land and have the funds to build a out door turtle "house" and i live in NC) but shes got a good foot or so of peat top soil mix that she can dig into .. and dig she did .. the girls are very worried im not so much .. i just would like to know how long she might be down there .. when she first came to our house i placed her in a laundry basket( that looks like a farm animal watering bucket ) in the bathroom with our other turtle a RES ( not in the same tub mind you ) but the bathroom is the warmest place in the house and there is a light set up over the tub in there so both of them had the opertunity to get heat.. i put some water in it and she used the bathroom ( which smelled horrid ) cleaned up the mess and placed her back into the bucket with a towel to hide in ... later that evening after making dinner i had saved some peices out a peice of mushroom and a pea ... which i placed in the basket and she had eaten both before dinner was over .. she hasnt eaten since although move varried and red foods have been presented to her

when i moved her into her new abode she just started digging at first you could see half her shell then she dug deeper and we could onyl see a little bit of her shell then she dug deeper hiding entirely.. she must have dug deeper still because one of the girls while i was out of the room tried to dig her out and couldnt find her ( she got fussed at for messing with the turtle ) .. im assuming the poor thing is scared and is hiding and will come out ?? HOPEFULLY .. she has a food dish waiting with a grape and a thin slice of tomatoe if she does .. incase i dont see the even

If you are going to be unable to build an outdoor home for it for very long, I'd recommend finding out from the other kid where the turtle was roughly found at and returning it to there. They don't do well indoors and you are seeing one of the reasons why. These guys need the stimuli of weather and seasons and daily light patterns to keep them active.

I'm also in NC, west of chapel hill about 15 miles. We have outdoor setups for all of our 30 turtles, every one. Most of ours are box turtles, and most of our box turtles are easterns. They do extremely well with a nicely appointed outdoor pen. We get a lot of breeding as well, and enjoy swapping stories with the local garden shop guy about local turtles.

While you have it indoors, you should add a large water dish. I recommend a plastic cat litter tray (rubbermaid makes them, wal-mart sells them for a few bucks). They are just about deep enough for the turtle to completely submerge in. You'll need to change it every day.

Don't worry about the burrowing. They need high humidity, so besides stress she may also be burrowing to keep up the humidity levels around her (plants can help this). Toss in any native plants you know are safe to transplant (I.E. not nettles or poison ivy or whatever). Houseplants that work can be pothos, ferns, etc.

Take a peak at the link below. My name is Nathan, in my menu (at the top) I have links to photo albums and to some pages with some info my wife and I put together some time ago (aileona turtles). Both should help you a bit.
my personal web site

Actually, Eastern boxies can do quite well in an indoor set-up, if it is properly done. Granted, I have a very LARGE (4" x 6" setup for mine, with full UVB lighting, all lights on timers to simulate day/night cycles, natural soil and plants in the enclosure, large pool for soaking/swimming with "mister" on a timer for humidity, and hollow logs to hide in. If you have the room/money to set up this kind of thing, you can keep her indoors. My youngest male/female combo have bred successfully for the past two years in this setup, and my oldest has thrived this way for over 20 years now, and still going strong.

Just make sure you can provide the above conditions, as well as an appropriate diet. Otherwise, you will need to consider an outdoor habitat.

Bless you for rescuing her from such a horrid situation!

Wendy

Just a question about your oldest that you've housed this way for 20 years: you did not mention its reproductive abilities. Has it been bred? Recently? Successfully?
I confess freely that I have not been at this for very long, but all of the research I have done on the subject indicates that eastern box turtles need the changes in light,temperature (especially for hibernation), room to forage and hunt, etc., that can best be provided by keeping them outdoors.
This information was gleaned from sundry and assorted long term studies conducted by various biologists around the country, as well as the learned opinion of my herp vet.
I had had to keep 3 of mine in an indoor setup over the winter for medical reasons, with all the bells and whistles, and they appeared to do "just fine". Then as soon as the weather warmed up, they were moved outside, and I soon realized that "just fine" was downright listless compared to how they are now.
Having seen them in both situations, outside is definitely best for my easterns, at least for the longterm.

My 20 year old has bred successfully many times, most recently last year. I do also have a fenced deck where everybody can go outside on nice days (unfortunately not daily, Seattle weather being what it is), and activity level is consistent (and very high) in both places. Like I say, though, this is a pretty big enclosure, and I "landscape" in there to provide hills to climb, and feed everybody "forage style" (i.e. dig your own worms!) at least weekly. Lighting is top quality full-spectrum, and I simulate seasonal changes by raising/reducing heat as needed, as well as providing day and night cycles. Everybody hibernates faithfully every year. I actually consulted with the zoo in setting up, so I had a lot of good help with the tricky stuff.

I think the research you have read and your vet are all correct in the requirements they state. I just want people to know that, although not cheap or easy, it IS possible to fulfill these requirements in an indoor setup if it is done correctly.

Wendy

It sounds like you have a terrific set up. My indoor habitat is 4'x8', and outdoors is 21'x36'(756sqft), and since I live in central VA its actually probably lower maintenance to provide the outdoor habitat, with the turtles being in their native range.
I guess the point I'm trying to make is that given this situation,in NC, it would probably be easier & better for all concerned to spend the $$ on the outdoor setup, whereas in your case its obviously a necessity to invest in an indoor habitat. I'm glad you elaborated on exactly how you've done it! I ended up having both, and even though they've got plenty of outside area, I'm glad that I have an infirmary to use should the need arise...

Definitely agree there! An outdoor setup would have been MUCH easier, just wasn't a reasonable possibility here.

Ah, the things we do for our herps......

Wendy

Are you using indoors because you don't have the outdoor space, or because you are worried about climate issues?

I've known keepers of eastern and three-toed box turtles to do outdoor living all the way through washington state, and I know the climate can handle them just fine (or they can handle the climate I guess I should say).

If all you've got is your fenced deck, I could give you some ideas on how my wife and I built our balcony at a rental apartment into a turtle pen. It was drastically cheaper (and kind of fun) and worked well for us when we used the indoor hibernation in a dorm fridge (we just happened to have a spare dorm fridge, any fridge would do, though).

Really the only tricks are coming up with methods of containing soil and plants while allowing for drainage. We had everything in long low under bed storage boxes and ramps of stones and such so that the balcony had a walkway we could use ourselves but otherwise it was all free run space of planter boxes and stuff.

I do like having an indoor really nicely set up cage that is attractive to look at and relaxing. We do that now with our bearded dragon in an 8x3x3 enclosure and a 40 breeder tank that is currently housing some tadpoles from the eggs we found in our yard before they dried up.

Space is the issue for me, though climate is something of a concern as well. I have also known people in this area who keep outdoor boxies, but their activity level and longevity is drastically reduced by the climate here. One guy told me he "just lets the turtles hibernate about 7 months out of every year" !!

The indoor setup is not longer expensive (all the expense was in the creation!!), and is very relaxing to look at, so I have no plans to get rid of it. I would love to hear about your balcony setup, though, as I like to give them as much time outdoors as I can.

Wendy

drop me an email so I can think and then reply with as much info as I can (nathan (at) aileo.com)

Hi,
Could you post the titles and authors of the reference material you cited? I'd be very interested in reading it. I've heard a lot of anecdotal evidence on the subject of keeping box turtles, but I've never seen a published study. I keep my box turtles indoors for a good portion of the year as well and have not seen a dropoff in activity levels that some people have indicated. They seem as active in their indoor pen as they do in their outdoor one. Let me know I'd appreciate it.
David

David,
Please note my use of the word gleaned.
In an effort to obtain as much information as possible before acquiring eastern box turtles, I spent alot of time searching libraries, consulting with my veterinarian, and accessing internet sources (including contacting DR. belzer at Clarion Univ., who was kind enough to send me a large packet of information that he'd written, as well as papers cited).
All information I found discussed the habits, habitats, food sources, hibernation periods, etc., of wild turtles, and noted that by and large, wild Box turtles are quite healthy.
The only reference I have found so far that states specifically that indoor housing under artificial lights w/o hibernation, or room to roam is acceptable is in the headstart-hatchling care instructions sent to me by Dr. Belzer, citing & following the protocol developed by Michell & Michell (1999) for wood turtles, but even this is for a relatively short term period, after which the juveniles are released.
Regards,
Stephanie

So these were basically studies of wild populations? Or was there data on captive specimens as well.

Steph,
What you experienced is the same as myself over the last 20 years. Box turtles can "survive" indoors okay if a LOT of effort is put in to mimicing nature to provide morning-noon-evening-night light level cycles, mimic seasonal temperatures, and mimic weather patterns such as dry and wet periods. Even doing this, though, their breeding abilities slip to the unreliable after 4-5 years and become sporadic. The cost of setting up a miniscule indoor pen of 25 square foot or less and the difficulty of maintaining such an environment is pretty high when compared to the far superior and easier and cheaper method of maintaining an outdoor enclosure, which can almost always be larger in a typical backyard.

It should be noted, though, that even with outdoor keeping, occasionally years of fewer eggs will happen based on weather or perhaps personal habits of the turtles themselves.

It is absolutely incredible to see the difference in their habits and the massive jump in their activity level when they move outdoors to a nice pen, though. I won't even keep my hatchlings indoors more than their first year now. After that its off to the pen. They seem to be developing better colors and doing much better that way.

I think from an earlier discussion on here that it all basically boils down to what your definition of success with the animal is.

If you want it to live, an elaborate indoor setup will work. If you want more than 5 years of regular breeding and a quintupled or higher activity level, outdoor housing is the way to go. Figure out what suits your goals with the animals and do the best you can. I really enjoy working on landscaping my property and the turtle pens are what dictate my landscaping. I'm working on all kinds of native fruiting plants to cover my property in for next year and I really enjoy sitting outside looking at the beautiful plants and watching these tanks cruising around foraging and hunting.

well we dont intend on keeping her inside long .. we are moving by the end of the month and between lumber thats already at the house and a little umpf and we could have an out side cage built with in 2 months from now or less .. so she wouldnt be in here to very long

and anyway i would rather her be outside than in so that she can have more room to roam .. after our baby RES gets older i would like to put her outr side as well in the large pond out back .. but right now shes only half dollor size and easy pickins for birds .. we are going to fence in the whole property and fence off the pond seperate so none of the kids can acidentally push each other in ... but i think its better to be safe than sorry

sounds like you are very similar to my wife and I.

We just moved to the country and have a TON of space now. I put up a privacy fence around a 100x50 foot area. I had them install it one foot into the ground all the way around. Eventually the whole yard except for a small patio area and my wife's garden will be taken up by landscaped pens with walking paths. It's kind of like an island of jungle crazy in the middle of two acres of regular yard and it's all private and ours to enjoy.

Our pens are being expanded every year and new ones built until we fill up all the space. It's quite a project and a lot of work, but it's so worth it to us, we get a lot of enjoyment out of just looking at the plants alone.

I've got plenty of tips on how to make your pen easier to maintain outdoors if you're interested when you've got the time and you are ready to build.

Ooooh really .. easy maininance would be great ... i think all the dirt thats in this tub will be used in the out side place to make the dirl less tough .. the ground around here has an awful lot of clay in it .. i might have to get more top soil or something to put in to make the soil drain but hold a good amount of water so it will stay moist but it will not flood in their cage

i would love instructions to build a low maintinance but nice looking dog proof and pest proof box .. .. because im not quite sure about animals in the neighborhood yet .. but we have a dog . and teh neighbor has a dog .. so if one gets lose i dont want them getting a turtle out and playing toss the turtle

absolutely, when you are ready, drop us a line (nathan(at)aileo.com) and we'll give you any help you need. Don't worry about hard or clay soil, my yard is 100% red carolina clay, and hard as rock if it's dry, but my females nest just fine (if slowly) even choosing hard spots sometimes over softer piles of nesting soil/sand mixxes.

*lol* go figure .. i guess they are used to it .. and im trying to baby the turtle huh * smacks my hand *lol*

we live in Salisbury, NC .. so that really wouldnt be to very far * nods*

* whispers* i had to ask my fiance Kevin where Chapel Hill was *lol* me bad

i just moved here from Maryland about a year ago so im pretty stupid about how to get places around here so i ask .. *lol*BTW my name is Michelle *s* ( my email addy is qtkitty99@hotmail.com if you ever would want to get in touch with me *G* )

She's likely a relatively fresh caught wild girl. This is pretty normal behavior for boxies that are new to captivity. Every few days, spray the enclosure with a water hose and that will likely induce her into activity. This occurs naturally when the rains come. Also, try feeding her an earthworm. I'll bet that brings her around. If she is *too* conscious of you watching, hide a bit but keep her in sight. I'll bet she snags the worm before you eyes, esp if it's a wiggler.

Little by little she will begin to trust you and eventually she will be fairly tame. I've seen kids do the most horrible things to turtles. You've done a good thing.

Paul

She actually has a hole dug where she can stretch her neck out and look up and around *lol* which is a hoot .. i had droped a worm in there earlier today before i read your post .. she almost got it but the kids ran in screaming so she pulled her head in a little and just watched it ..

and of course Brittany her owner wanted to stand right over the tub to she if she was eating the worm UGH next worm is going in while they are locked out side * giggles * im seriously thinking about it

Good going on the rescue! Maybe a trip to a nearby nature center with the kids would improve their regard for animals in general... I have had success with this tactic in the past, and alot of places like that are free or almost free.
Good luck! You've come to a good place to get help.

Yeah im going to go to NCTRR after we move and look around *G* ... after i get an out door cage set up or sooner i dont know for sure .. we might have a male visiter from there *G* We are talking about it .. but so far nothing is define

If you aren't too far from us, you are welcome to swing by and take a look at our setup. It won't be long and our setup will be quadrupled in size (I'm about half done with the walls, then I got to do the decking, landscaping, walkways, and the pond). The kids are welcome to take a look as well.

Thanks .. *G* when we get all moved and every thing figured out we might have to plan that *G*