Reptile & Amphibian Forums

The article talks about chondros and carpet pythons, however, this technique has been implemented with some monitor species in the past. Perhaps this technique could alleviate the problem of adding too much water to the medium and drowing the eggs.. Interesting nonetheless...

bob
No-Substate Incubation Technique/Incubator design..

I have used that method and many others. What I suggest is making a decision and then sticking with it. The problem is, they all require an education process. You will have to learn how to apply each method, then decide which is good for you and your species and tendencies.

I know it was suggested that to much moisture was the problem and it may well be. But I will suggest that it may not be the problem at all.

An old herp breeder once suggested that in order to have strong hatchlings, you must start with strong adults. Which I took to mean, weak adults, equal weak eggs, which equals weak hatchlings or none at all. This breeder(Ernie Wagner,76) helped me understand that it all starts at the begining.

How all that applies to you is, how do you know anything, you only lost one clutch. You have not hatched any. How could you know anything what so ever. You may try the same exact thing over and have it work great.

I guess what I am thinking is, why jump from horse to horse, before you know the horse is lame. You now have a head start of the process you already started. Good Luck FR

Hey Frank, all I said was that this was an interesting concept...that some people(not saying myself) have had problems with eggs absorbing too much water during incubation. I did not say anything about me changing/altering my incubation technique. I just thought that it was interesting, and thought I'd bring it to other people's attention, is that discouraged here on this forum??Did I do wrong??

lol!!! Just f**king with you Bob a little bored here
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

before I post anything for forum browsers to view, I must run it by the "board of directors", or "director" for that matter....

bob

I read the entire thread and I dont see anything that may upset you, am I missing something here?
Frank is rightful in his statement and aim only saying that sometime weak hatchlings can become productive healthy adults, I tot you wanted opinions.

They are non tolerant of thermal shock, a completely exposed egg combined with moisture makes for perfect thermal shock every time you open the lid, being half buried or ¾ buried reduces the thermal shock effect by that much, and sins the embryo is in the bottom part of the egg, the benefit is even more.
IV always believed that over wintering egg may incubate at temps as low as 50f; however the temps are very slowly dropped and again slowly raised, not the common 5 degrees thermal shock experienced when we open the lid. To this add that water is unstable as liquid and as insulator, it cools down very fast, therefore it’s rapidly affected by outside temps, and on the other hand some substrate acts as an insulator keeping incubation temps more stable. Also water ph must be monitored especially in long term incubating eggs, and last but not least python eggs are tough and can tolerate much more then varanids eggs, perhaps an adaptation to maternal incubation?
Aim only sharing info that may help you, nothing more!

Why open the container at all? I've been researching this topic, and still don't know which way to go. I have a basic setup nealy ready to go, I just haven't decided on a technique. Unless there is a problem w/ eggs, why would one open the main container. If evaporation was a problem, one could drill a small hole in the lid to accomadate a fill tube. I have no experience yet so I don't have a leg to stand on, but the theory seems sound. Clint

well if you only have one egg box, then perhaps with a good hydrometer and thermometer opening the box may be kept to a minimum, however when many egg containers are involved specially when set at different levels on shelving, you need to service them quit regularly.
temps, humidity, viability, development, egg condition, often eggs will dent from bellow impossible to see without lifting.
manipulating eggs is not a problem when properly done,in fact its less detrimental then handling babies, a fetus will not stress from gentle manipulation, once hatched its a different story, monitors in general get most of there stress visually, its this kind of stress that make them turn back into the eggs and drown or makes them leave the nest prematurely, its also responsible for food refusal, however good husbandry plays a major role too.
note; I recently patched a cracked egg using the new liquid band-aid and seems to be ok (for thos interested)

how did it crack??? just out of curiosity... That's interesting.. a friend of mine tried that a couple of years ago with the liquid band aid stuff on 1 or 2 eastern box turtle eggs that were slightly cracked....never got the results of whether the eggs hatched or not...

bob

Sure Bob I will explain about egg cracking, first everyone knows that pressure causes the egg to crack, however few knows what exactly causes the pressure! When an egg is laid the top dead center is called the north pole of the egg, 24 hour after deposition the embryo sets in what’s called a polar position, this mean the embryo yolk albumen and blood vessels all take there rightful placement, the axis of the egg cant be changed from there on, if it is a little to much theirs 2 possible outcome, first possible blood vessel damage (death of the embryo) second damage to embryo caused by yolk and or albumen weight (this is the pressure that cause eggs to crack) they can be saved if proper axis corrections are made. In all my cracked eggs dead embryo’s where in non polar position (candling can help rectify the positioning of the egg. Proper positioning will close the crack within a day or 2 then patching is possible.

Hmmm. So much for dogma.

a walk in incubator gives you, no temp flutuation or very little! when a method is chosen only trail and error will bring experience, its little adjustment that makes a method successful, changing to a new way is like starting at ground zero again.

Just humid climate and fairly steady temps

yeah thats one heck of a method... but they'vbe hatched it right? wait till they pursue on planning to use a hammock instead of a incubation medium and will put inside a tub or something.... i think it's ridiculous but who knows? maybe making an easy thing harder will benefit some guys right?

hendrix

your the man Bob, I know you will have better luck next time. Hey I read somewhere, you can hatch eggs in an easy bake oven, I think there is a link somewhere. FR

but I believe what Frank is saying, while new ideas might work. Why fix what aint broken?

Scott
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Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

all i was questioning, was, why bring my eggs into this.. Did I mention anything in this post about changing my conditions, or recommending people to?? I appreciate everybody's comments on the topic in general, it has been very helpful. I just did not see any signifigance in bringing my experiences into the conversation, as I was just showing people a website regarding this technique, since it has come up in discussion a few times in the past few weeks..

I agree with all of you, if something is working for you, why change it.. makes sense, but what about the animals that people have in many times failed to hatch.. would you continue to use a technique that has proven for you to be unsuccessful???

bob

The incubation thread started with the narration of your dying eggs. There is a direct line of discussion from that point to other methods of incubation. Which is now. If you do not want to discuss your eggs, you shouldn't have posted them.

All I said is there are many many ways to incubate monitor eggs, pick one, and all methods require a learning curve.

Related to this thread, are others interested in methods of incubation. Whether you like it or not, your thread and comments are read by others(all who are interested). That is the nature of message boards, while you and I, may be the main participants, its open to all and read by all. In reality, what I say to you, is also say to others and visa versa. That is how a message board works, whether I or you, like it.

Please understand, when you open a topic for discussion(thats why you posted, isn't it) That you will recieve comments from all directions, not just the direction you hoped for or expected. Hopefully you will recieve comments, from all sorts of people with all sorts of experience, including me. FR

I started inquiring about this technique with the thought intended towards tree monitors, as it appears that the perlite or vermiculite technique has been unreliable. I was not bringing this technique up due to thoughts of changing my kimberly egg incubation around... although I do plan on improving it, as you have suggested, using more perlite/bigger containers... that makes total sense to me... I would have no intentions on trying a different technique with odatria, especially since the perlite/water technique has been proven to be a successful technique.

Since there has not been a consistency with prasinus complex breedings here in the states, I have been looking around for alternative methods, for if I should ever recieve eggs from my captives.

So yes, I have been interested in this 'different' technique over the past few weeks, but you misunderstand my reason for doing so.. I began looking into this, after I have suspected my female macraei of being gravid. Not about me losing kimberly eggs.

Like you said, why change something if it has proven to work in the past??? but what about things that haven't worked in the past?

sorry for the misunderstanding...

bob

I have several friends that have no problem hatching blacktree eggs.(here in the states) and they hatch them in a normal way.

Again the problem starts with healthy adults, that nested properly. Good nesting equals healthy eggs. Poor nesting equals questionable eggs. That is across the board of species. Of all the species I have produced, only two species have eggs that can be used as a golfball and still hatch. Lacies are one, and albigs are another. Heck for some reason, the ants don't even bother their eggs. The rest are all the same. FR

Do lacies have a smell to them like albigs?

Just wondering since you mentioned ants do not bother either of them. Both species have been known to use termite mounds is there something the monitors do to prevent the eggs from being bothered?

Not that my nose call detect, hahahahahahahaha. Also, local lizards are not bothered by the ants either.

Termites are not ants, I doubt the protection from one effects the other, but that really does sound good. The problem is, many species of monitors have used termite mounds as nesting.

About lacies eggs, they are not effected by bad nesting like many other species. Heck I have had one clutch laid in two seperate outdoor cages and the indoor part, some on the ground and some under, all but two were caved in over 50% and all hatched. Wish they were all like that. FR

Thanks, I realized they are not ants. I just found it interesting that you mentioned it about the ants. Was wondering if maybe the two were realated some how in that the termites don't seem to mess with the albig's or lace monitor eggs.

I just know how potent the smell is of a albig. that brown sugar, maple syrup, sorta smell. Was wondering if maybe that had something to do with it? If not what do you think makles them smell that way? What is it's purpose?

I know this may not be answerable I am just thinking out loud.
Thought maybe for once you'd like to talk monitors with someone and actually have it be civil. haha

Take it easy man( or anyway you can get it ) haha

JP, you may be interested in this. A researcher working on lace monitor reproduction found a freshly roadkilled female with viable eggs while doing his study, so he decided to remove those eggs and put them in a termite mound. They all got destroyed by termites in short order, which didn't seem to happen with any of the naturally laid eggs. While he and everyone else is aware it's a tiny sample size and has a million variables, therefore not a proper experiment, he thought it might be interesting for someone to study whether or not eggs laid naturally have some subtle coating that discourages termites, or allows them to accept the eggs as part of their nest. Whatever the case, the eggs soon adopt the smell of the mound, anyway, and usually get encorporated into the chambering. Not sure if you've ever seen photographs of lacie eggs that have been removed from a termite mound, but the termites build pretty much right over them. You can see a bit of this in Daniel's book, on page 254 at the top (the egg on the right still has some of the material on it)

Only cause it strikes my curiousity. I find it interesting how the female that did not deposit them in the nest (eggs destroyed) but females that put them there are left alone.

Make me wonder if there is not some scent placed on the egg's. Insects use scents or pheramones to communicate for the most part. I wonder if the females have adapted something similar to cover the egg's.

I wonder if once a female laid her eggs and they are not messed with, if one could romove one or two egg's and clean them off or cover them with chalk to mask the odor. Place it back and see if it is then attacked or not.

It's just a an interesting topic for me to pondor.

There is a difference between live eggs and dead eggs. Many insects attack dead eggs, that do not attack living eggs.

About the smell, I may be nose dead, but I do not detect a maple syrup smell. I can smell live eggs from dead eggs. But not like snakes and monitors can. Live eggs smell sweet, and of course very much the opposite for dead eggs, even freshly dead eggs.

Your idea is a very good one. FR

I need a very stable incubation container because aim careless and forgetful, with this set up I don’t need to wary about water level as the eggs are suspended on a screen 2in from the substrate, also at the end of incubation if needed, rather then adding water I simply spray the maxi pad inside my cover, this avoids possible saturation, this simple system is quit stable and more forgiving then just perlight.
Also eggs directly over water is very unstable, condensation and molding are the first problem encountered. As for the eggs you’ve lost theirs no way of being sure if a better incubation who’d have saved them, however I can say that many fragile hatchlings have grown into healthy and productive adults, this alone make your efforts worthwhile.
Bernd albino was such a week hatcheling with a kinked tail, yet he was able to produce more albinos with him.
Rgds

There was a similar study done maybe 10 years ago by Steve Hammack of the FW Zoo. I believe the results were similar. It is an interesting idea that has never really caught on.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Its not really about catching on, its more about your conditions. For instance, I live in the desert, in the winter our indoor humidity is about 2%. That does make a difference with what method you use. In our monsoon season, our humidity is up, at that time of year, we are more like the rest of the world and incubation is different.

These are just examples, but the reality is the same, I choose a method that fits our conditions. I choose those methods because they work here.

I think one of the big problems is, many of us come from other reptile backgrounds and breeding and hatching eggs is commonplace. We have experience. It seems lots of monitor keepers, do not have experience hatching eggs. So its a big problem for them.

The only difference I see with monitor eggs is, time in the incubator. Thats all, they are in there a lot longer. Sometimes over a year. Most other reptile eggs hatch in a season, not several or all four seasons. Thanks FR