Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I had bought what was suppose to be a 2.4 breeding group of ornates, but from the responses of my posted pics below, I have 4 male ornates and 2 female 3 toed boxes.

What size does the 3 toed females need to be before they are mature and breeding size?

Can you breed an ornate with a 3toed?

Thanks for your time in advance!

I don't understand you hybrid ppl but I would suggest sending them back and getting the right species that you payed for.

You should keep species Pure.
Jeremiah's Reptile Garden

What I want to know is why someone would purchase breeding group of a general type of animal, seek to breed that animal, when he or she doesn't even know enough about that animal to determine the species or gender?

By the way, maybe you should post photos of all these turtles, I only saw one ornate and one three toed. And I'm not at all 100% convinced that the ornate was a male.
I have a female ornate that has red eyes and my males all have very solid green or yellow heads. Although I think the rear toe nails might be indicative, I'll have to go back and look. But I wouldn't automatically assume that all your ornates are male going on one photo of one turtle.
The three toed, looks likely to be female, but I have been fooled. I have a male three toed that has brown eyes and a brown head.

Sexing these guys can be tricky sometimes.

Well, my reasoning for buying a breeding group of ornates was because I have kept one ornate as a pet now for a couple years and had the desire to breed them. When I came across this deal, I thought it would be the perfect opportunity. I have done research on box turtles, and assumed the gender and species, but just wanted to double check with more experienced turtle owners. And as far as interbreeding, I was just curious. I know most hobbists frown greatly upon interbreeding species, but I thought I'd just throw it out there to see what was to be said. I am very interested in dart frogs and leopard geckos, and with dart frogs it's almost a sin if you bring up the idea of interbreeding species, however, with leopard geckos, it's common practice to get unique crosses. I was just interested is all. Didn't want to offend anyone.

Yea..um...I have a male ornate living with a female 3-toed right now. I don't see why anyone should be jumping down your throat about the ethics of the question. I'm curious too if mine could breed as well, simple as that. These 2 live in the same regions where I'm from so the likelihood of them interbreeding, though not large, is possible. Not forcing anything here but just letting nature take its course.

Johnny

I've talked to a few people that have accidentally gotten the ornata and caronlina species cross bred, and they seem to feel that the hatchlings and surviving juveniles are not as hardy as the offspring of the mating of the same species.

Katrina

Regarding the crossbreeding between ornates and carolina species....I've read some anecdotal accounts, but have seen no proof. I have kept ornates and three toeds together for three years and have never seen Males of either species show a flicker of interest towards females of the opposite species.
During the fall winter I kept three ornates and two three toeds in because they started showing symptoms of respiratory illness as hibernation approached. I kept the ornates and three toeds grouped by sub species in two large rubbermade tubs. In the ornates I had one adult male, one adult female and one juvenile or sub-adult, that I think is female but am not 100% sure.
After they had been treated for infection and as spring approached, the male ornate was constantly trying to mate with both the adult female and juv ornates and the male's toenail were cutting into the juv and causing her to bleed. So I moved the very horny ornate male in with two female three toeds for several weeks and he never touched them.

I don't have any problem with anyone trying to cross-breed. I think you can learn things. To me the biggest problem would be if the offspring got into the wild population. But based on what I've seen, cross-breeding isn't likely to happen. There is always someone on the classified forums claiming they are selling caroline/ornate crosses, but I've never felt the photos were convincing at all.

they're not exactly seperate species they're subspecies, though no one really knows what that means.. I've never seen a mutt I've seen hard to identify adults usually pure easterns or three toeds, I'd like to know if the offspring of a cross would be a mutt or a mule, but I'm not going to cross mine with any other ssp. to find out anytime soon.
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1.2.1 Terrapene Carolina Triunguis
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Easterns, three-toeds, Floridas, and Gulf Coasts are subspeices of each other - all under the Terrapene carolina species.

Ornates and westerns are subspecies of each other, under the Terrapene ornata species (T. o. ornata and T. o. luteola).

So, an ornate and a three-toed would be different species.

The World Chelonian Trust, www.chelonia.org, has some good pictures broken down by species and subspecies.

Katrina

Isn't it generally accepted that "subspecies" simply means "race?"

So "technically" a 3-toed breeding with an Eastern would just be like two people of different races having kids, although I think human beings are A LOT closer. A 3-toed and Ornate together would be obviously another story.

That's why the whole subspecies concept is so muddled....

the simple answer is yes.