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I just got a group of jungle siblings in from Jeremy Stone, and Im debating what to do with the group. I know they are from the Sweedish Line, but how should they be sold or described?

This animal is a yearling jungle sibling. As we can see it didnt get the body color, but did get some of the markings. Is this animal a common in everyones opinion? Would this be considered a low end jungle?

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles

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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

Mickey, in my humble opinion it is just simply what it is... a jungle sibling. That line being proven codom. basically makes it a normal animal, that happens to be related to higher end animals. Sorta like a hypo sibling or sunglow sibling, yes they were born in the same litter but do not carry the trait that would denote a substantially higher value. So as far as it being a low end jungle, I'd have to say that that would be a misrepresentation as I would highly doubt that Jeremy would part out a yearling "low end" jungle for a low price, especially when it is known by people who have worked with the gene that even the non jungle(Abberant) ones can produce pick of the litter jungles themselves. So it all boils down to a nice normal. Hope this opinion helps a little, maybe others will also have some good insight.

Best,
Justin Higgs
ECTOTHERMZ...

Saved me some typing, and you were right on.
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Davey Giltner

"especially when it is known by people who have worked with the gene that even the non jungle(Abberant) ones can produce pick of the litter jungles themselves."

If this is the case, as I have also been told by many people, then how is it like the hypo gene?

With a hypo sibling, you breed it to a common, and YOU CANNOT PRODUCE HYPOS. So if a jungle sibling is just common, then you COULD NOT PRODUCE JUNGLES.

I have spoken with a few people and no one really nails it down for me. Do I really think Jeremy would knowingly send me a animal he thought was a jungle for a lesser price, NO. However I get the feeling from my correspondence with other breeders, and Jeremy, that even they are not 100% sure what to call what sometimes.

Would I call any of the ones he sent me a jungle, NO. However should I discount the fact that they could produce jungles, so far I say NO. As such if they COULD produce jungles, how does that make them like a hypo sibling, that could not produce hypos.

I would love to nail this down better, so please anyone help me understand it. The last thing I want to do is missrepresent anything for any reason.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

I would say a "Very nice normal" or "not your average normal"
Hell, call them the Hinkle Hypo/Jungle. They're yours right?
LOL
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Greg Holland
G&M HERPS
www.imageevent.com/gmherps
gmherps@sbcglobal.net

I dont want to make up anything for them. Its not that Im worried about what to "call them" as I will call them what I am told they are, jungle siblings.

However I am worried about what to say to potential customers so as not to mislead them.

When I recieved them, Jeremy was nice enough to note on a couple of the bags "keepers", includeing the one I showed the picture of. As such I feel like hes "hinting" something to me. But what? He knows I purchased them for re sale, and that I am heavy on boas as it is, so he wouldnt try and insinaute for me to keep it for no reason I would think.

For the time being I just inflated the price on the ones that I think could be "special" if nothing else I will happily keep them to see if they are "special". Just trying to figure out the gene better myself if nothing else.
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

>>I dont want to make up anything for them. Its not that Im worried about what to "call them" as I will call them what I am told they are, jungle siblings.
>>
>>However I am worried about what to say to potential customers so as not to mislead them.
>>
>>When I recieved them, Jeremy was nice enough to note on a couple of the bags "keepers", includeing the one I showed the picture of. As such I feel like hes "hinting" something to me. But what? He knows I purchased them for re sale, and that I am heavy on boas as it is, so he wouldnt try and insinaute for me to keep it for no reason I would think.
>>
>>For the time being I just inflated the price on the ones that I think could be "special" if nothing else I will happily keep them to see if they are "special". Just trying to figure out the gene better myself if nothing else.
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>>Mickey Hinkle
>>The Lizard King Reptiles
>>http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
>>402-614-6641
>>
>>"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

Ok, so its agreed soo far everyone says Common.

Now the next question would be this, say this "common" breeds next seaon, and abberant boas clean boas are produced.

Are theese babies then jungles, or do we call them abberant. Do you make a new line up.

Granted its all hypothetical at this point, but thats the problem Im seeing with the jungles. This is also why I perfer to sell them as atleast "jungle siblings". If they did prove out with abberant boas, wouldnt it be better to know the line they started from, rather then suddenly diluting the market with yet another "morph".

O well my peanut is tired.
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

Okay...lets say you breed one of these Jungle sibling males to a normal, unrelated female. Surprise, surprise, you produce some Jungles in that litter. Then I would say, CONGRATS you lucked out and just proved that sibling out to be a Jungle! I would say those babies are Jungles.

I don't really see a problem with you calling your animals that you got from Jeremy as "Jungle-siblings". As long as you're honest about what you're selling...then I don't see a problem in it.

Celia
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Celia Chien

Celia Chien Photography
My Snakes

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

If you get lucky enough and it produces some Jungle looking babies......You scored!!! You boa is a verified Jungle sibling that had a normal appearence sold to you by a know breeder. If it creates Jungle babies. You have a Jungle that just didn't look like one......But, it carries the genetics for some reason. No need to call it anything else.
Logic would say that Jeremy would not have sold it for a lower price if he thought it was a Jungle.
That's just my thinking on it.
John
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"To be the best..........You must lose your mind."

"Logic would say that Jeremy would not have sold it for a lower price if he thought it was a Jungle.
That's just my thinking on it."

I would not argue that point in any way.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

but if I could speak for him (LOL), I think what he meant by that was "Non Jungle" meaning not "jungly" looking. Non aberrant. My male Jungle is definitely NOT very aberrant in pattern yet he is definitely a genetic Jungle Boa from the Swedish line. Linda H picked up a male from the same litter as mine that did not have a single aberrancy on him but is still a Jungle Boa.

I think what most people are having a problem with is the association of aberrancies with Jungle Boas. Aberrancies are NOT the only thing that distinguish Jungle Boas though they are one of a few characteristics that Jungle Boas have.

I hope this helps...

Celia
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Celia Chien

Celia Chien Photography
My Snakes

www.ExoticsByNature.com
www.BallPythonMorphs.com
www.CornsnakeMorphs.com

It does and it doesnt.

I hope first off everyone understands that I am asking theese questions to learn, not to try and up the value of the other animals.

Like I said seeing as Jeremy marked that particular animal as a "keeper" on the bag, and took the time and effort to raise it up a year, I get the feeling he felt it was something more then a "common". This gets my little peanut of a brain going, and makes me think "hmmm maybe I should keep this animal"...lol.

Ive called a few people who work with the jungles, and most have told me that in their opinion one or two "commons" from each litter have the potential to "pan out" soo to speak.

Now if this is the truth, then no the jungles are not like hypos, and that anology is part of the problem. As far as I am aware a hypo is or is not a hypo. Ive have always felt that any hypo I see I can identify as a hypo. If it doesnt look hypo, it isnt hypo.

Well it seems with the jungles, its very similar, but more confusing. If it doesnt look "jungle" it isnt jungle is the current belief. However a non hypo "hypo sibling" cannot suddently produce hypos. But I have been told by reliable sources a non jungle "jungle sibling" can produce jungles.

Its all just educated opinions, based on genetic background it seems to me.

I know I cant sit on a dozen of theese, but I sure will have to sit on a few, just to see what happens. The animal pictured is likely a male (havent gotten around to sexing it) as such it could go as early as next season. If thats the case, might as well see what happens I guess. Now to find a female to test him on.....lol.

This pic is another "jungle sibling" that catches my eye.

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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

Mickey,
I don't want to speak for anyone, but this is what I think they are trying to get at. Jungles have tendencies to show more than just one trait. They tend to have an overall body color difference from the jungle siblings. Also, they tend to have aberrancies. The problem here is that people only seem to associate the aberrancies with jungles because that is what first catches their eye. So, this gene does work like hypos whereas the siblings will not produce any jungles. It's just a little more difficult to judge the jungles from the normals if the pattern variation doesn't appear. I think it is easier to pick them out of a litter when you can see all the siblings together and see the color difference. Hope this helps.

Matt Crabe

It does help a little, and I have been told that before "You know the jungles from the commons when you see the whole litter". And I understand that completely, the problem rises when you get the litters broken up....lol.

Would be nice if they were like hypos, and you could see one and know it, cut and dry makes life easy.
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison

If he wrote keeper on the bag hes the only person who can tell you why. I think when I sent Randy some snakes, It was in a bag that I had been shipped a corn in, and it was marked snow. I don't think Randy thought I sent him a snow boajust because it said it on the bag, but I am sure if he thought that, he would have called me before asking here if it was a snow.
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Davey Giltner

but if I could speak for him (LOL), I think what he meant by that was "Non Jungle" meaning not "jungly" looking. Non aberrant

Celia, your right that is what I wanted to say, but you know how typing goes sometimes Basically a jungle that isn't a stunning jungle, but is still a jungle can produce amazing jungles...The gene is highly variable.

Mickey you raise a good point and that point is that, yes Jeremey and other Jungle breeders sometimes can not directly distinguish 'whose who' amoungst the litter immediately and other times, while I do not own or have never produced jungles, but word is that they do stand out from others. So in theory it would be that Jeremy thought that there was an outside chance that these guys were jungles and wanted to hold them back for a while to really distinguish one way or the other, and when they were large enough and he could render a proper decision he sold them as what he thought they were.

But your def. right, even in hypo litters sometimes there are 'tweeners' and who knows with the jungle gene it isn't as cut and dry as say a hypo or an albino, so there is the slim possibility that in fact it is carrying the gene, I guess the only way to find out is to breed it out and see for yourself, otherwise, most likely the best educated guess that Jeremy could go with, was that he thought it was a sibling and not a jungle.

The fun of genetics and boas rears its ugly head, but you've got to love it

Best,
Justin Higgs
ECTOTHERMZ...

Actually, pete kahl could add a lot. I wish he would post here more often, but I know he is very busy, and has a TON going on. (I also knows he stays out of the forum because people will misunderstand him and call him Cocky or Snotty). I have been called that by quite a few forum members even though I really don't try to be. Ohh well, you can't win them all. I do think he could ad a TON though. Many many people who just breed a few boas could also ad a ton to the boa forum.

Now, about the Jungle Sibling. Here is my opinion. There are some of the normals that come out looking like they could go either way. Either a VERY LOW end jungle or a VERY sharp Normal. That looks like one of those animals. I do believe it to be normal, but it is different enough for someone who has the time, to play around, and they MAY get lucky. That is why i labled it as a "Keeper".

I would say this for SURE. IF that were a FEMALE, it wouldn't have left my facility. I will keep all the females that are in the middle. They are worth raising up and breeding to other jungles. IF THEY are low end jungles, then I would get SUPER Jungles, and that would certianly be worth it. I actually DID keep 2 females from that same litter. They look almost identical to that one. I don't think they are Jungles, but VERY nice looking normals, but I thought they were different enough to take the risk of raising up and breeding.

The reason I got rid of the males like that is because I really don't have the time, or the space to breed those animals. I have a lot of Male true jungles, and so I'll use those for my breedings. I can say that I do have a Jungle that is a little sharper then that, but Produced SCREAMER jungles. Many people 2 years ago told me that was NOT a jungle. It has NO abberancies like that animal, but just a little more pastel of color. The Jungle one for me is a little tricky. It is dominant, but isn't as easy as the HYPOS to pick out from the normals.

In closing, I do think that IS a normal Jungle sibling. However, you MAY get lucky. I think you are doing the right thing Mickey in selling it as a "jungle" sibling. I do think that animal may be worth 1/8th of a Jungle price. Definatley worth double or Tripple a normal. If anything it could produce SCREAMER babies just like him.

Hope this helps. Mickey, I appreciate the way you get others opinions on things. That really helps us ALL check eachother and do the right thing. I wish a LOT more people would discuss educationally different ideas like the way you are doing it. I think it really all gets our Boa minds turning which can only be for the better. Jeremy Stone

Ive been thinking about this all night, and Im glad you took the time to respond, and really do appreciate the last statement.

I was a bit worried by posting this here, you might have thought I was airing "our business" in a open forum, and in a way I guess I am. But I see you understand I am just trying to get insight on the issue, and to do the right thing.

In fact I have a person who really likes the original animal I posted to start the thread, and in correspondence with them, prior to reading your responce, I made this statement

"I would bet this animal to be a male, allthough I have not yet sexed it. If Jeremy too a whole year to raise this animal, were it a female he would likely have kept it"

My feeling on that animal was that you were borderline on it enough to at one point consider it worth raising. Then the season gets going in full, and you realize, even if it were something, being male its something you didnt need.

Lastly I did just want some outside opinions soo to speak, as I feel I have a good deal of weight on my shoulders when selling "your snakes". Not only do I have my reputation to look out for, but useing your name attached to the animals, I have your rep to look out for in a round about way. As such I try and be as honest as humanly possible so as to not make waves.

Thanks again Jeremy, either way theese are awsome boas.

Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
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Mickey Hinkle
The Lizard King Reptiles
http://thelizardkingreptiles.com
402-614-6641

"I am the Lizard King, I can do anything" - Jim Morrison