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Update on Bloodred/Pewter/ Strange Bloodreds

Marcel Poots Jun 12, 2004 01:48 PM

The first Bloodreds have shed..

These are the Amel Bloodred Motley hets. They ate before they have shed. I tried feeding the Bloodreds but they refused. So I threw in the pinkies with them and they were eager to eat.

Pewter no 1

An outcross Bloodred.

Pewter no 2

Pewter no 3

Pewter no 4, a strange one. Very small, I hope it will make it.

Pewter no 5, my favorite.

And these are the mystery Bloodreds that turned out to be normal Bloodreds


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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Replies (10)

cmsuphoto Jun 12, 2004 03:44 PM

I want one of the pewters!!!
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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

Hoppy Jun 12, 2004 07:06 PM

qsdf
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

carl3 Jun 12, 2004 10:14 PM

I thought bloodred gene(s) was/were more complex. I'm pretty sure that its not simple recessive but its not entirely co-dominant either. I think there are multiple genes involved but I forget and don't know for certain without reading up on it again. At any rate, THANK YOU Marcel for sharing your pictures and experience with all of us.
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Sincerely,
Jason
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Too many snakes to list in my signature anymore! LOL
My Website & Pics
(click here)

Marcel Poots Jun 13, 2004 03:49 AM

>>I thought bloodred gene(s) was/were more complex. I'm pretty sure that its not simple recessive but its not entirely co-dominant either. I think there are multiple genes involved but I forget and don't know for certain without reading up on it again. At any rate, THANK YOU Marcel for sharing your pictures and experience with all of us.

Yes, it is a bit complicated. Bloodred X Bloodred will give you all bloodreds but Bloodred X normal will give Bloodred look alikes. At least some of them. They will have few checkers on the belly als a slight fadind pattern. Here is an old picture of one of my outcrosses..
Image
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

carl3 Jun 13, 2004 07:38 AM

Will the normal het bloodreds (outcrosses) bred together give you pure bloodreds or just more outcrossed look-a-likes? I heard once you outcross them, you lose all of the pure bloodred traits. correct me if I'm wrong...
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Sincerely,
Jason
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Too many snakes to list in my signature anymore! LOL
My Website & Pics
(click here)

Marcel Poots Jun 13, 2004 07:42 AM

>>Will the normal het bloodreds (outcrosses) bred together give you pure bloodreds or just more outcrossed look-a-likes? I heard once you outcross them, you lose all of the pure bloodred traits. correct me if I'm wrong...

You will get Bloodreds again. But they will have not the deep red from the original strain of Bloodreds. They will most likely have a more orange color like my adult Bloodreds.
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

John Q Jun 13, 2004 10:12 AM

Although the term het is used, bloodred is not a recessive gene. Last year when there was alot of skepticism about one of my females being a blood, hypo, and motley, I sent pics to two of the most recognized professional corn breeders in the world. Kathy responded that it is not recessive but she uses the term when one of her hatchlings shows slight checking on the belly. Don and her both felt that my female was not a blood but they were not sure what she is. This was because she lacks the solid white clean belly and while she has nice motley looking rings on her back, she lacks the enhanced colored rings around the circles to say she is hurricane motley. According to Kathys Corn Manual, bloods come from a specific area in Florida. Kind of like okeetees come from a specific region. A specific look is associated to the term. When an okeetee is bred to a normal typical corn, some of the hatchlings will show the okeetee influence, thick black borders would be the most obvious. I believe blood breedings will have similar results.
Last years hatchlings lacked the solid gray heads typical of hatchling bloods. Plenty of pics were posted and shared. I picked up a male blood from Don and bred him to the female this year. She just gave me a clutch of 18 fertile eggs, 1 slug. Last years hatchlings proved she was definitely hypo. This years will prove that she is or is not an outcrossed blood. Either I have bloods het for hypo or something new. This is a Win-Win situation for me. One of my favorite projects.
Here's some pics of last years hatchlings and a link to the parents that produced them.
Link to female...
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4056304&a=30791099&f=
Link to male hypo...
http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4056304&a=30791104&f=

Last years hatchlings.

This one shows a slight amount of faded melanin

This one shows no melanin at all, nothing.

Belly shot of the hatchling that has a slight amount of faded melanin.

Belly shot of the hatchling that has no melanin at all.

Marcel Poots Jun 13, 2004 10:26 AM

Wow John,

These look even better than I expected.. The one without any melanine on the belly will be a good one to breed with.. Incredible..

Marcel

>>Although the term het is used, bloodred is not a recessive gene. Last year when there was alot of skepticism about one of my females being a blood, hypo, and motley, I sent pics to two of the most recognized professional corn breeders in the world. Kathy responded that it is not recessive but she uses the term when one of her hatchlings shows slight checking on the belly. Don and her both felt that my female was not a blood but they were not sure what she is. This was because she lacks the solid white clean belly and while she has nice motley looking rings on her back, she lacks the enhanced colored rings around the circles to say she is hurricane motley. According to Kathys Corn Manual, bloods come from a specific area in Florida. Kind of like okeetees come from a specific region. A specific look is associated to the term. When an okeetee is bred to a normal typical corn, some of the hatchlings will show the okeetee influence, thick black borders would be the most obvious. I believe blood breedings will have similar results.
>>Last years hatchlings lacked the solid gray heads typical of hatchling bloods. Plenty of pics were posted and shared. I picked up a male blood from Don and bred him to the female this year. She just gave me a clutch of 18 fertile eggs, 1 slug. Last years hatchlings proved she was definitely hypo. This years will prove that she is or is not an outcrossed blood. Either I have bloods het for hypo or something new. This is a Win-Win situation for me. One of my favorite projects.
>>Here's some pics of last years hatchlings and a link to the parents that produced them.
>>Link to female...
>>http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4056304&a=30791099&f=
>>Link to male hypo...
>>http://albums.photo.epson.com/j/AlbumIndex?u=4056304&a=30791104&f=
>>
>>Last years hatchlings.
>>
>>This one shows a slight amount of faded melanin
>>
>>This one shows no melanin at all, nothing.
>>
>>Belly shot of the hatchling that has a slight amount of faded melanin.
>>
>>Belly shot of the hatchling that has no melanin at all.
>>
>>
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Marcel Poots (Holland)
'Where is your crown King Nothing?' James Hettfield

Hoppy Jun 14, 2004 07:07 AM

Hey John,
Thanks for the info. I do not know a lot about the blood red Corns and their origin, but the orange checkering on the belly was one of the things I was told to look for. The other is the bleed over on the belly and the grey heads of the babies. Someone once commented that they thought my striped corns looked as if they were from Blood Red Stock, but I have no idea why the thought it? I need to look more into this line. So I am guessing that it is more a locality issue then a genetic trait?
Thanks
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Paul Hollander Jun 14, 2004 01:40 PM

As I recall from Michael McEachern's corn snake color and pattern booklet, somebody started with particularly red North Florida stock and then selected them for the reddest he could get over a number of generations. The result was the blood red line. It has been outcrossed extensively since, partly to eliminate the reproductive problems in the original stock and partly to combine with other mutants

The red color is apparantly from selection. I am inclined to think that the bleedover of orange/red on the belly also resulted from the extreme amount of red pigment present. I've seen considerable amounts of orange/red pigment on the bellies of Okeetee corns.

The blood red pattern mutant's full blown phenotype seems to involve killing the belly checkering and diffusing the dorsal and lateral blotching so that the blotches do not stand out from the ground color.

McEachern called the blood red pattern mutant a recessive mutant gene. But past posts on this forum indicate that when heterozygous, the blood red pattern mutant can produce a noncheckered or partially checkered belly while having little or no effect of the lateral and dorsal blotches. I do not know how reliable the effect is for identifying the heterozygotes from the normals. I think more work needs to be done with the mutant to check out its range of effects.

Paul Hollander

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