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These were the next two to hatch out.

Normal FL King

And the second aberrant one.

Also with a completely solid black belly.

So that would make it a genetic aberrancy then?
BTW, these kings always start off on pinkies no problem.

patternless black bellys. I have not seen enough kings in Florida to know how prevalent this could be? I have only seen this in some blotched king lines of which I have some hatchlings in our collection. Is this also something not commonly seen in Florida Kings? Raises the question at least to me of the possible influence that exists in some Blotched King collections being maintained.

Although very few similar looking snakes could have possibly been turned up over the years would you think the possibility of this abberrancy (or snakes with it I should say) having eventually being assumed something other then from typical Florida Kings and being used in say for example another's Blotched King project?

From the previous posts on patternless some mentioned the solid black belly as not very common. I personally do not in what regards though that was meant. Not common in any getula that are native to Florida or Blotched alone.

Would you have any personal views on this based on your experiences?

Best Regards, Richard Hebron

Black bellies seem to be a somewhat common trait in South GA/North Florida eastern kings. I have a female eastern king from Columbia County Florida that displays this trait. This may or may not relate to the black bellies found on some goini. A "large" part of goini's range is supposed to have Eastern king influence.

Check out the mosaic kings on Keith Hillson's Eastern kingsnake resource site... they are remarkably similar to these oddball Florida kings.

this trait is not common or has not been seen in normal appearing Florida Kings from ranges further south?

Yes, I have spoken (all so briefly) with Kevin at his table in Daytona last season on mosaic kings and have seen Keith's page (nicely done I might add). I actually e-mailed Keith to see if he knew anything about some of these already in the hands of others in Florida as there was one ( appearing as such) in the hands of a rathar new local hobbyist. I found that odd and was awaiting for a response before I inquired more on that particular snake. I sent the e-mail I believe the same day the post on the first hatchling was made.

In the 80's while I was residing in NYC there were Florida shipments hitting some of the dealers that exhibited some rathar oddball looking Eastern Chains as well as Florida Kings. The extremes of some were incredible in size as well as pattern/color . They were typically paid for by the foot with as I recall no locale info. ever provided. Not many there cared much about that especially since being located so far away, it was just assumed some of these oddballs were not really odd but common to those in Florida. I have since come to the conclusion many of these oddballs could have been part of isolated communities where as their populations could have been deeply reduced in numbers quickly.

We saw many that had a block pattern with some also showing the block pattern along with an orange color still present in mature specimeins. My memory though fails me on belly pattern/color of these. Who knows what they were but they existed.

Too bad how much of Florida's habitat has been changed before we could really get a grasp of many of these getula locales into private responsible hands.

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

that it is or is not, but I know it's uncommon for that population of kingsnakes to have a solid black belly. I'm sure the occasional specimen has such a heavy belly pattern as to appear to be solid black... I have one here that's pretty close.

Kingsnakes in FL seem to be subject to a lot of locale variation, though whether you see it or not can depend on how closely you look. A population of kings on the west side of Lake Okeechobee have a jet black ground color, with little or no speckling, and often have a chain pattern, resembling a high bandcount eastern, where-as the kings on the east-side of the lake are more typical Florida kings. A similar variation occurs in the Tampa Bay area, where the kings on the west side are black in ground color, with little or no speckling, have lower band counts, partial to complete chain pattern, and can look like an eastern king you'd "expect" to find up 150 miles north, where as the kings on the east side are typical to exceptional looking Florida kings. The kings in the counties surrounding Jacksonville are a Florida/eastern intergrade, but can be some of the lightest kings in FL. The adults have a lot of orange on them, and the getula influence gives them a bit of a different pattern than what's normally seen in FL kings.

I'm sure there are other examples all around the state, but like you said, the habitat has been altered so much that there aren't many good kingsnake populations left.

Rich

As far as others having Mosaics I would tend to doubt it but there could be others out there. I guess If I was going to get Mosaics I would only buy them from Kevin as he has a great reputation and it leaves alot less doubt.

As far as black bellied kings go I had a pair of Maryland locale Easterns that had solid black bellies. Ive never seen it in a Floridana but its seems to occur frequently in Eastern Kings but its definately not the norm. My GA Easterns has a black belly but has a few yellow blocks here and there but I would say its 97% black.

Keith
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stating the question in regards to purchases and such of mosaics and who they should be sourced from. My direction here is not economicaly based in the least.

My question was in regards to the fact that although none are suppose to be available YET from CB (at least I'm led to believe that and was questioning you in an e-mail of the possibility) there are some turning up by new hobbyists (that is to say those that truely do not know what they have) since many new hobbyists like the one I was referring to typically start their hobby by buying herps from pet stores that typically sell WC.

I did not want to assume anything here so figured to ask someone who may have known more then I first. I guess I should now see if I can get a pic of this snake and find out where he did get it.

Keith, aren't you in New Jersey? That was one of my stomping grounds for almost 30 years. Should be there for about 10 days later this month. I bet all my spots outside the Barrens are pretty much malls by now. Use to see Easterns like crazy. One guy who I am hoping to go see says he still sees Easterns 6-1 over any pines (my true focus up there). Thats pretty good numbers. Do you keep many Florida kings aside from Brooksi as well?

We reside in Florida now though (past 12 years) and do see many Floridana come through all too many hands. I will need to start focusing more on them as a whole. I myself have become quilty of giving them less focus in leu of many other herps we also focus on.

My favorites have always been Pituophis and Heterodon. Now these I do come upon in Florida. Hitting Okefeenokee this evening and tomorrow. We do see kings in South GA all the time. Never have seen one on the Florida roads to that area. Only rattlers, rattlers and more rattlers. Herps that would lead me to believe would not be so common if kings were still inhabiting that area in large numbers.

Nick, have you hit these areas as well?

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

I have not hunted that area. I'd like to, but at the moment its a bit too far out of the way. Right now I only really hunt the Tampa Bay area and Lake Okeechobee.

It's interesting that you say there are a lot of rattlers on the road though. From what I've heard from N FL collectors, the places they find diamondbacks are the same places they find kings. Florida kings don't seem to be well known for crossing roads... they're found that way sometimes, but it seems the most successful ways to find them is to flip trash.

The rattlers I refer to are not EDBs but Canebrakes in the area where I see them.

Now Diamonbacks can be found in other places though with incredibly large numbers being present right at mid day during the hot months. After a havey rain they are then replaced by Pygmys. One day my wife and I must have come across 80 rattlers where as a dozen or so were EDBs.

I will as well e-mail you specifics as this topic has drifted a ways in this forum.

Rich

Hey Rich

Nope Im in Wisconsin and Ive never been to NJ but someday I want to get there and take a look at some of those Easterns out in the wilds of the Barrens. Try and get some pics when you are there if you can Rich I would love to see what you turn up.

Keith
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I was hoping you were LOL..

Probably nothing will be turned up if we keep making more fishing trip plans. DEEP sea fishing is another thing my wife and I do, and lately alot of it. We maybe spending more time in Raritan bay now then anywhere else.

Barrens by the way was something years ago, just as Florida in my opinion is today to many that know where to be at the right time. I don't think there are too many right times in store for Jersey. Aside from 2 positive responses I had 8 negative. Been 12 years since I lived up there and will probably see more kings and pines at the FIRE show in Florida when we get back then we will in Jersey )-:

Congrats on the chain eggs and hatchlings. Not enough of them around these days.

Regards.......

breakdown on their variations exhibited within their habitat. Thanks for the info.

About Duval County (Jacksonville) there are many looking for these kings. There were some around a decade ago (and yes, very light in color)that were commercialy collected and put on wholesale lists under Suwanee Kings. I have not heard of any of these kings being come across in over 5 years. I have personally looked for these time and again during the past 3 years as well as a few people associated with various Nature Centers and such locally. We have all come up empty. As large as Duval County is with much land left untouched by development (so far!!!!) I would think they are still out there.

Needed to add that in case any of you more in tune with getting outdoors feels the need in herping this area and lending a hand.

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

The light colored Suwannee kings come from a larger range than just Duval County, but are still generally centered around that specific area. I'll contact you privately with more information.

Nick

So that would make it a genetic aberrancy then?

I believe it may be. Have you seen this post by Pierson? The Mosaics from SC and the two aberrant ones I hatched out have too many similarities.

http://www.field herpers.com/lampropeltis/messages/2023.html

(Take the space out between the words field and herpers for the link to work)

Hi Sean, is it just me, or do those kings have very large heads? A very nice clutch at any rate. I like those normal ones to.
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Tim

Hi Sean, is it just me, or do those kings have very large heads?

I think the heads just look larger due to the rest of the body being a different color. It looks as if someone took a FL King head and put it on something else. At least that's kind of how I see it.