Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, i uploaded a lot of pics of my Blackthroats and my new cap banded Whitethroat. go check em' out.

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hmmmm
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Would you mind showing me where he said that HE did that?

See, here is the tragic truth of this forum. People waving their claims (among other things) all around and trying to prove each other liars. I happen to know Matt and his animals. In fact he has come to my house many a time to see my animals & set ups. In fact he has many of the animals I no longer keep. He is sincere, honest, and committed to his animals and this hobby.

There was a time just a few years ago that you had people posting here that really gave a crap and were happy to help. I was a newbie then, at least to the forums. I was happy to take their advice and listen in the proportion that was originally intended by the creator. Two ears, two eyes, one mouth, get it? Many of those people that were so eager & willing to help have moved on to other forums and may only lurk here if that. (This place is good for the occasional laugh). Many of the keepers that were around when I began probably don't have animals any more as the hobby seems to be limited to about two years on average. If you come here to learn & share experience please do and allow others to comment and share. If you come here to troll then take solace in knowing that you are the reason many of the great keepers no longer post here.

Anyone remember Spike?

No one is accusing anyone of anything, i dont doubt that he has a CB animal. My response was to a disscussion between your buddy and SHvar, where your friend Matt posted this-"3.2lbs may be a little light, but remember he is growing very fast. he still has a very nice rounded tail. in no way can you see any of his bones. i think maybe Gene may have seen it when it was smaller, like after i have had it for like 2weeks. i know i told him about it. and so you know, i did not pay $300 for the blackthroat. his female laid 22 eggs, he admitted it was his first time breeding monitors, and only got 6 out of the 22 to hatch. he has held back 4 and sold 2. he is going to see from the 4 which ones are female (if any) and then he said he will sell the males. he gave me pics of the monitors breeding, her laying the eggs, eggs in the incubator. a pic of one of them hatching. and the overall 6 of them. so please dont be so quick to doubt it. not everyone who breeds them is a business, or a big name breeder. if i can get ahold of him i will ask for him to send the pics again and i will send them to you on your email. i will take some pics tomorrow.
now how do i post pics? i used to post a long time ago, but havnt in like 2yrs"

and we were all waiting for him to post. I think Shvar was trying to make sure that mat was dupped by the dealer because so many advertise cbb animals for a higher price when they are really wc. No accussations here.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

I really wasn't directing that whole thing at you. Just that I have seen Matts animals and he believes them CB. I have been duped before, on a pair of BRNs. It pretty well sucked but it was all part of learning.

I guess my point was why is picture proof a necessity for everything these days. Especially when no one is saying anything unbelivable. Matt stated "he gave me pics of the monitors breeding, her laying the eggs, eggs in the incubator. a pic of one of them hatching. and the overall 6 of them." That was enough proof for him. Why does he have to justify that to anyone else?

Thanks for not taking my little rant the wrong way.

Later

Gene

I know he wasnt the one who claimed to be breeding but since he said the guy gave him pics, i was curious to see them. Heck im looking to find a trust worthy source for cbb BTs myself. I recently joked with SHvar about purchasing a female to breed with Shadow so i could get one.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Gene, what about picture stealers?

I am aghast at SHvar's story about someone showing a picture of Frank's house and saying it was HIS house, and HIS breeding operation.

Stuff like that makes me sorry I posted any photos of my BRNs hatching. I hope no jerk-offs out there are using them to sell their WC baby BRNs. Makes me want to mark all my photos somehow, just so people don't get ripped off.
People are so dishonest, I don't blame anyone for wanting proof.
D.

Yes picture stealing is completely wrong and a very horrible thing to do. I understand your wanting proof when you are purchasing a monitor or when you do something that warrants proof. Like you are the first ever to breed a species or something along those lines.

This has gotten blown way out of proportion and perhaps I should have kept my mouth shut but it troubles me when I see someone asked to prove something to someone else that wasn't even involved in the original situation. This was between SHvar & Matthew and quickly became a situation where someone was asked to show pics of something that someone else did. Maybe the other person (breeder) doesn't want his pics online for that very reason they may be stolen. Or maybe he just does it as a hobby & doesn't want to make his name public for these very reasons.

Either way, I may have over reacted and shouldn't have gotten involved. I am just saying that it isn't always necessary to demand proof at every turn. If you told me you cross bred your BRNs to a water I would love to see pics but I would still believe you with out them. Now if I was going to purchase one I would want to see a pic. I wouldn't blame you if you marked your pics. I think it would be a good idea considering you are probably the first to breed BRNs with any consistancy.

Later Goon, I'll try to email you more later

responds to a public post? I was actually the first one to respond to this post, it was not posted or directed to Shvar only if im recalling correctly. I have told you and Mathew why i asked, it was a source for a captive bred speciman that interested me(nothing more, nothing less). I am sure Mat is a big boy and doesn't need to be rescued. I appologized to him and you for miscontruing why i asked the question but now knowing my intententions to purchase such an animal, i would appreciate any contact info or better yet if you could either refer him to this site or give him my email that would be great. christiencopes@aol.com
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

He was asked simply how he knows, he answered because it was bred by some guy who sent him pictures of those things. I like the fact he posted pics of his animals because if nothing else he posted something worthwhile and nice to see. I asked if I could have the individuals contact info because if someone has or is breeding albigs its nice to be able to direct interested people to them and its also nice to know if someones a con artist selling overpriced imports who to avoid. Its just that when he said a WC female layed eggs and a few survived to be sold, its the most common excuse a dealer gives you when they claim them to be CB. I told him that size is no indication of age as Ive see many examples of tiny or small monitors that appeared to be hatchlings yet were 1-1.5 years or older, one I purchased for a friend. Also I referenced Shadow who was 24 inches and 2lbs at 2 years old (straight from the breeder, who honestly thought he was a female).
Nobody insulted him nor challenged his manhood, he was asked for proof to his claim though.

i NEVER said that he got a WC female that laid eggs and a few survived. im VERY sorry i ever posted anything on this forum. its ridiculous how much you people get worked up about this. i've seen the pictures of them. i did delete them off my email account when i got the BT because it took too much space up in my inbox. i was NOT ripped off, i am VERY happy and satisfied with the BT i got. he is absolutely awesome, he has just got amazing colors. he is getting redder and redder everytime he sheds. and he is kept on Top soil, and screen soil. so its not the dirt making him red. his attitude couldn't be better. he was CB, i know it and thats all that matters. you can choose to believe it or not, i really dont care. im not going to say anything else about it in this forum. if you want to talk email me.

Look Matt no one is doubting you or stating that you dont indeed have a captive bred animal. That very well may be the case but if someone were interested in dealing with the breeder of these animals the pics would weigh in his/her favor. No one here is attacking you, so why are you so defensive? You are absolutely right in stating that as long as you know and are satisfied screw what anyone else thinks. I applaud that because this is infact your animal. BUT when you post on a public forum you to take the good with the bad(whatever that may be in your book) just like with anything else in life. No need to get offended over a few words.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

From being simply asked to post pics and to provide info on the origin of your monitor, thats all.
I made a suggestion to you, prove it to yourself and get it checked by a vet for internal parasites native to Africa. If your gonna claim something on a public forum thats well known to be rare then be prepared to offer proof, as FR says "claims are only words typed on the screen". I asked to help others out so that trying to find a true CBB albig was a bit easier, so that they can go to a good source, not get ripped off in classified claims. I noticed out of hundreds of claims to CBB monitors Ive questioned in adds etc, the most common answer Ive got back is for them to get mad, threaten, and act offended. Ive even copied and pasted some email responses from rip off artists that threatened and insulted for me asking for proof.Like I said, I busted one guy who still sells animals in the classifieds for claiming FRs house and cages were his "savannah breeding facility".

To sex tiny hatchlings(after all you said it was small when you got it) if the guy was in fact selling you a male and keeping females.

" he admitted it was his first time breeding monitors, and only got 6 out of the 22 to hatch. he has held back 4 and sold 2. he is going to see from the 4 which ones are female (if any) and then he said he will sell the males."

Look at the pic below, this is a male Albig, compare to your pics.
I looked at the pics you posted, and Bob is male (obvious for comparison), look at the pics of his head, body, and tail shape, but Scotty is female compare the shape of those, they are completely different mainly when they reach a certain size on. Also the preanal pores stick out at the very base below the vent. In fact the pics of Scotty has a completely shaped tail and much thinner shaped tail base. Dont worry I made this mistake for a while with Sobek, and so did Rob Faust for 2 years with Shadow my male, I could tell he was male from the pic on his web site before I called him.
Another point youll know for sure if the animal is somewhat healthy it will produce eggs someday, they can start at 6 months on, but most at around 18 months old with the proper rescources.

eggs(infertile obviouly) without the presence of a male? Did not know that. Guess thats one sure way to tell sex.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

But they do not seem to cycle near as consistently without a male. Infertiles also seem to take a toll on females. I believe (opinion) that weather and presence of food also have an effect.

--Robert

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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

they will inturn obsorb the eggs which would cause health issues? If this is the case females are more trouble than they are worth if breeding them isnt in ones plan.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

but it is a possibility.

It is much more likely in my opinion that absorbing (and failed absorbtion) has more to do with health of the monitor, water, food, and stress. Dumping eggs doesn't seem easy on them either, but they recover very quickly. If you have females breed them or fix them.

--Robert

Her to lay eggs therefore having the wrong dirt, and she became eggbound, also having changed the situation after she was cycling it was too late, at week 3 she was x-rayed at week 4 she had surgery to remove the eggs and her ovaries so that I would not lose her as a family member, her ability to reproduce was far overshadowed by her being a family member. She had just over 5lbs of eggs removed at 22lbs in body weight, afterwards she was 16.5lbs. There were 44 eggs inside of her, this was her second cycle, the first she absorbed at around a year old exactly, and I didnt recognize it until afterwards (4 days time she swelled and went back to normal and wouldnt eat). The cycle at a year and a half she never went back to normal she swelled a bit bigger, but would only eat one adult mouse every week and a half. During this time I spoke to Rob Faust and Frank Retes on the phone and their recomendations were the same, get them out of there. Luckily I had recieved the video from Dan Turner before this and knew he did the same with "Dracula" his one female BT which he thought was a male.

SHvar, honestly i would LOVE to be wrong on his sex, but i have seen him evert many times. he does have bulges at the base of his tail also. he is a male, i REALLY wanted a female but didnt get one. one reason i bought a very large proven female from PE. should be coming in sometime this week
and he held back 4 of the BTs. the 2 he sold he didnt say anything on sex. he was just selling them. wish i knew who got the 2nd one. and i am still looking for another female for Scotty. am hoping maybe the Whitethroat i have now, is female.

Hemiclitori not hemipenes. When a male albig everts you cant imagine that 2 of those fit in that tail base, again they evert something that looks completely different. Post a pic of the base of Scottys tail from upclose and a bottom view of its tail, Ill even mark the pics and repost them with a paint program. Here is a pic of a females tail which is a whole world thinner and different shaped, as well different shaped mid section and head. The female has large peanal pores that stick out. This is a females tail.

6 months old when she layed her first clutch, Shadow is here uncle and 1 year 13 days older than Sobek. They can produce eggs early, and small, the way Faust keeps them.

6 months is way early, even for captive animals. Isnt the normal around 2 years? Thats quite impressive, would love to hear what he does differently than most.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

When a year might be too much time, so many predators, so many droughts, so little food at ceratin times, etc etc. They have the ability, but on average they wait until around 18 months. He doesnt feed them alot, in fact alot less than most, therefore much smaller animals, but he keeps them as pairs and trios all of the time. I remember him telling me about how they are amazing animals that can go without food without harm for months, and can also reproduce normally at 6-7 months of age. Albigs are adapted to grow very very fast, reproduce early, and lay many many eggs, but they need certain conditions to be able to, food, temps, water, nesting material, etc.
But then most monitors are adapted to survive in a similar method, with minor changes by species, probably having to do with individual environments from where they come.
I may have missed Sobeks first cycle completely at 6 months old, she may have not cycled until a year old (when I first noticed it afterwards), I didnt however miss the 3rd at 18 months old, that one smacked me in the face hard, wake up call (make some changes in her husbandry it said). Its the best way to retain that info, by experience I guess, but its also better to learn from others mistakes, its better for your animals health.

The 12 year old kid who tried to post everything in ebonics, and tried to give husbabndry advice to anyone who didnt know that he was just looking for trouble. The kid who had 3/4 or more of his posts and responses removed for threats, profanity, and constant insults to everyone in sight.
He had several names to switch around from, but you could always trace him by IP address. Back then it was so much easier to tell who somebody was by IP address, now its alot harder to check that.

It is just in the middle when you view source instead of the top.

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