Reptile & Amphibian Forums

....that many people here have pictures of them "handling" snakes, and THEN ask questions about what kind of snake it is ?
(see "copperhead" post...that one couldve been a disaster, had the "photographer" decided to try to handle it)

It'd certainly be better to take the picture and inquire about what kind it is, BEFORE handling the snake.

When out in the field herping (Ive gone "hunting" in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California, Florida, Nevada, Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Kentucky, West Virginia, and Kansas so far...) , its a good idea to have a Field Guide handy, and familiarize yourself with the snakes that are found in the area.

If you have ANY doubts about a snakes "identity", DON'T HANDLE IT ! Make notes, take a picture, etc....

My $.02

Good point, however, in the case of the Arizona/Pituophis, I got the impression the poster knew enough to know it was a colubrid..just unclear on which of two species it might've been.

~~Greg~~

Thank you, yes.

Here in Canada / USA we are fortunite to have only 4 groups of venomous snakes; Rattlesnakes, Cottonmouths, Copperheads and Coral Snakes. All of these are easily identified by even the least experienced herpers, and by nearly anyone the least bit out-doorsy, so there is little if any risk in handling an unidentified snake found in Canada or the US (assuming it is not an escaped venomous species). Perhaps handling should be limited for the snake sake but ophiphobia (made that up now, does anyone know the real word) is unwarrented in in northern North America.

Cam Hanna
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"I'm tired of being a wannabe bowler! I wanna be a bowler!!"
-- Homer Simpson

A lot of people have no idea. There is definitely a risk. And for the record, people suck at indentification. I caught a brown snake 2 days ago...4 inches max and skinny...and the neighbor said it was a rattler. Just goes to show you. The general populace are totally bunk at identifying snakes. That is why you end up with so many beheaded hognose and water snakes. And I am sure many people are tagged each year by picking up a snake they think is not venomous.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply." So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why. He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do. So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you."-Tesla

The general population of the USA and Canada only knows to fear snakes for the few that can actually hurt anyone.

What I tell people is 3 things if they HAVE to move a snake:

V shaped head
Rattle
Red on Yellow

If you avoid those three things... well then you shouldn't have any trouble with being bitten by a dangerous snake in North America. In general I tell people to leave them alone and the the benefits of having snakes around.

I wish that they would include some of this stuff in schools, because it is a 10 minute subject that could save the lives of many of my favorite animals.
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Currently have:
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe vulpina gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
1.1 Morelia Spilota Cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe obsoleta linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix Mokasen - Northern Copperhead
Epicrates Cenchria Cenchria - Brazilian Rainbow Boa

The only way to identify venomous snakes vs non venomous snakes correctly though is to become familiar with the snakes in the area, something most people will not take the time to do. Many snakes can flatter out their heads, especially Nerodia and Thamnophis, to have a v-shaped head and thus end up being killed as they appear venomous.
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply." So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why. He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do. So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you."-Tesla

True, but I tell them to observe not touch
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Currently have:
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe Vulpina Gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe Obsoleta Linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake
1.1 Morelia Spilota Cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix Mokasen - Northern Copperhead
Epicrates Cenchria Cenchria - Brazilian Rainbow Boa

see, thats the best advice so far...."look but dont touch"....reps can be enjoyed by observing them in their natural environments...

among the many "good" things this forum does, there are some "bad" things it subconciously encourages...say a kid catches a rosy boa, and takes a picture and posts it on this forum. he's generally told something like "thats a rosy boa, which tend to be good pets....NICE CATCH !!!!"....that kinda encourages the kid to go out and find more snakes ...this can be great in that it introduces a new "herper" to the hobby, but it can be bad because it doesnt teach the kid that he needs to learn about the snakes in his area BEFORE catching them....

i dunno ... i see some potential for disaster here...anyone see the gentleman handling the atrox? evidently he's had some experience handling hots (though id absolutely NEVER side-grip a rattlers head...a good chance of getting popped)....but someone see's this and assumes that as long as youre holding the rattler "as pictured", its safe....and as someone who's dealt with everything from green mamba's to egyptian bandeds, to lepidus, hots are NEVER safe. i was smart enough to stop keeping hots BEFORE i got popped, but their were a few "sketchy moments"....

i guess that maybe their should be a FAQ or disclaimer posted on the front page of this forum that states some of the ways to identify venemous reptiles, as well as encourages people to inform themselves about the types of herps in their area....

oh well....offa my soapbox now!

np
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Andy Maddox
AIM: thekingofproduct
MSN: Poloboy32486@hotmail.com
Yahoo:surfandskimtx04
Houston Herp Key
The Reptizone

And the sign says "No long hair freaky people need not apply." So I put my hair under my hat and I went in to ask him why. He said you look like a fine outstanding young man I think you'll do. So I took off my hat I said "Imagine that Huh Me working for you."-Tesla

Very true... unfortunately some people retort to catching snakes instead of buying them. However, in virtually every state it is illegal to resell them, give them as gifts, ect, and there is always a limit of how many can be collected.

For example, in Ohio, you may only collect and keep 4 WC snakes, and they must have a PIT tag at 18'' if the person who catches them is over 18 years old.

As long as people respect the rules I don't see any problem with keeping one or two WC snakes.
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Currently have:
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe Vulpina Gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe Obsoleta Linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake
1.1 Morelia Spilota Cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix Mokasen - Northern Copperhead
Epicrates Cenchria Cenchria - Brazilian Rainbow Boa

...i have NOTHING against keeping WC snakes (hell, i love snake hunting !)...never mentioned anything about that...all i'm saying is that, if youre gonna go out and catch herps of any sort, you need to be educated about the herps in the area you'll be hunting.

sometimes in our excitement to identify a snake thats been posted on this site, we forget to encourage the "catcher" to educate themselves before going out and catching another snake....how much would it suck if a someone posted a pic of a pyro that he caught, was encouraged by the "GREAT CATCH" remarks, and promptly went out and got bit by a pretty little coral snake ?

educate....enjoy....

I think that all we need to do differently is encourage people to learn more about snakes in their area. Your example of a coral snake is very true, because people generally think they are milk snakes, and that often leads to disaster.

My favorite saying is "Red on black, friendly jack, red on yellow, deadly fellow"

Easy for people to remember, and it keeps them out of trouble too!
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Sean McIntyre

Currently have:
0.1 Antherystic Elaphe Guttata Guttata - Corn Snake
1.0 Elaphe Vulpina Gloydi - Eastern Fox Snake
0.1 Leucistic Elaphe Obsoleta Linheimeri - Texas Ratsnake
1.1 Morelia Spilota Cheyni - Jungle Carpet Python

Saving for:
Agkistrodon Contortix Mokasen - Northern Copperhead
Epicrates Cenchria Cenchria - Brazilian Rainbow Boa

"However, in virtually every state it is illegal to resell them, give them as gifts, ect, and there is always a limit of how many can be collected."

I would change this to read "in some states" definitely not in most.

While I completley agree with you, I just wanted to clear up my own handling of the snake below.

I do know something about snakes and knew it was either a glossy or a gopher, or a hybrid, I just needed a positive ID. I knew the snake was not venomous but took care in handling it to prevent being bitten anyway. However, I found out it was extremely docile and thats why I'm handling it the way I am in those pictures.

People, especially younger males (17-25 y/o) will attempt to catch and handle a Rattlesnake EVEN IF THEY KNOW it's a Rattlesnake. Now, I'm not talking about experienced herpers here...I'm talking about average Joe that doesn't know beans about snakes. It is extremely rare to see that happen with women. It happens, but it's rare. Give Sean Bush a call and see what his stats are on the bites he treats with regards to how many people are bitten while messing around with a snake as opposed to how many are "legitimate" accidental bites, and how many of those are men vs how many are women. He is presently conducting a study to try to understand the psychology behind this behavior.

One of the big hurdles we (as herpers) have to overcome is the education of the public (it's in our best interest to try to do that). The problem is that the free dissemination of accurate and correct information is a relatively new undertaking. The dissemination of old wives tales and misinformation, legend, etc., has been going on for hundreds of years. The misinformation is very thoroughly embedded in the psyche of the average citizen...the things they were taught as kids they have taken as true all their lives. Some of it flies in the face of logic, such as snakes rolling into hoops and rolling down hills, snakes stealing milk from cows, etc., but they truly believe it because they were told by influential people in their lives that it is true.

I think that the best way to educate the public is actually through the children. Sort of reverse the flow of information. If the kids can be properly educated through school programs in grades K-6, then when the subject comes up and someone says something to them like "That there snake can roll up into a ball and chase you down and beat you to death with it's tail.", the kid will say "That's just not true. We had a Herpetologist at our school that showed us all kinds of snakes and told us that's an old wives tale." They may not ever change the older person's mind, but at least the new generation coming up will have the facts and will not pass down misinformation to his kids. The purpose of the school programs should be to debunk these myths, pass along sound information regarding the conservation of reptiles and amphibians, and to entertain the kids, as well as to properly teach them the dangers of molesting an unidentified snake.

Unfortunately, the combination of beer, testosterone, and venomous snakes is not so easy to overcome.