Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was telling a friend that I was getting a Creamsicle hatchling in the next month or so and how I was so excited because I've always loved the color of this particular morph. The blend of yellow and orange is just phenomenal...they fairly glow - like a sunset. Oh alright, I know I'm hokey, but I really love this color scheme. They're one of my very favourite corn morphs - only surpased by my love of the normals. Anyway, her imediate question was what did I intend to breed it to. *Let me insert here that her primary focus seems to be making money off her snakes. She's quite fond of them but her eyes really light up when she thinks of the potential money she can make off their offspring.* When I told her 'Nothing', she was genuinely perplexed and her next question was 'Why not?'.

Welllll....how about because I'm just buying one - as a pet - and I don't own any other Creamsicles. No, I'm not totally a purist (or I wouldn't be buying a Creamsicle in the first place, right?) but I think it's a matter of ethics not to mix my future Creamsicle into the genetics of my normals, or my snows for that matter. Yeah, she's right and it'd probably make some really lovley offspring, but what happens to them? The way I understand it, a lot of cornsnake lovers don't want mixed genetics in their stock unless they know it's mixed. On the unlikely event that I made a complete turnaround in my opinion and bred Creamsicles into my existing corns, I would tell potential buyers what they were getting. But what about those people who purchase them? Would they do the same? Would they tell the buyer of any offspring they produce, or even if they sold or traded the original animal again, that it was of mixed heritage? Or am I totally off base with what the modern corn keeper/breeder believes and my friend is right, it's about the color?

Now please, I'm genuinely not trying to start a major fight here, in case this is a sore subject. I'm just curious where you all stand. The only snakes I've successfully bred, or even have serious goals of breeding, are my boas. The majority of my collection is either boas or pythons, but I've always loved the corns and I'm indulging myself by collecting a few of the ones I really like. So....let me have it - just play nice.

Raven

I'm totally with you. I love purebreds, but also love the new morphs and colors. I feel like If we keep breeding and keep interbreeding we'll be left with nothing but snakes with 50 hets, I'm really into normals and Okatee's, because I love snakes their natural way, just always been the most appealing to me.

Like Jimmy explained to me,there both from the same family of ratsnakes.Now the goofballs breeding kings to corns,balls to bloods,burms to retics,well thats stupid.It's like mating a human with a silverback gorilla.It's not meant to be.With all the available snakes,morphs,etc on the market why would someone want a bateater?Another thing that gets me going is the horrible inbreeding of albino boas.There family tree is a strait line.They throw more slugs than live,and half of them are blind.Blind as in born with only one eye or none.Reading the boa classifieds makes me want to projectile vomit.Reading the boa forum is even worse.They dont care about the welfare of the snakes they just have money signs in there eyes.All albinos look alike.How can that even be a status symbol?If you dont own a sunglow or albino people wont even respond to you in the boa forum.I hope the craze dies off soon.There are a hell of alot better looking boas out there with color.Just my 2 cents and no one has to agree with me.I expect the flames to fly at me but thats ok.These are my standards and values...Paul

Thanks for your thoughts, both of you. I guess part of my perception on 'mixing' is from the boa forum as I've kept boas since 1991 but only bought my first corn two years ago. Even though there are numerous localities of Bci (Boa constrictor imperators), many come from isolated populations and it's frowned upon to mix those localities (such as Hogg Island boas into your average Colombian Bci).

In regards to the albino issue (and no this isn't a flame just my own thoughts & perceptions), there are actually alot of breeders now outcrossing into normal stock and then back to each other to introduce new genes. The misconception that all albino boas are blind or deformed isn't necessarily fact any more. Granted there are still breeders that breed the same line back to itself over and over and over, which DOES produce the type of flawed animals you're talking about, but a lot of breeders are trying to diversify the stock and get fresh genetics into it. For example - I have a juvenile female boa (Bci) showing aberrant patterning that was produced by my best friend. We used her male and my female this past year to see if we could produce another litter of aberrant babies (also to see if it was her female or her male that had the genetics shown in her first litter).

Here's my girl from my friend's 2002 litter:

And here's a shot of part of the litter I produced with her male this year:

Obviously the genetics are for aberrantly patterned animals through the sire. While we could just as easily breed her litter back to itself, this way we have the same genetic code in both litters but are also able to introduce new blood from the unrelated females that gave birth to them. Yeah, I wish all breeders operated this way, but unfortunately they don't - regardless of the species. And I'm 100% with you Paul when it comes to the true hybrids (mixing species and not just subspecies or localities), I don't see the purpose when there is so much genetic diversity and opportunity in just one given species.

Thanks for the discussion. Hoping to hear more people chime in with their opinions.

Raven

np

Creamsicles don't sell for that much, you barely make up the money they cost to produce. However, if you like the colors, would like to keep creams with creams, and recooperate some of your costs, I'd go for a Creamsicle Motley or Stripe.

I can completely understand about mixing corns and kings, or the likes, but I have to admit, a creamcicle is a beautiful snake, and since they are all ratsnakes, I don't worry about it too much. I have to tell ya, my favorite pet as a kid was my dog, a mutt. Something like a pekinese and poodle, I think we called it a peek-a-poo. Anyway, she was an ugly little lovable mutt, but she had no major defects or anything (like, three legged or one eyed) and well, she was a pet our whole family could love. My point being, if you like the color, and the snake eats well, is healthy, and everyone enjoys the animal, I wouldn't worry about genes.

Now, I have to say, I've bred my creamcicle to my anery B, just to see what happens. If I sell the offspring, I will let everyone know what they are and where they came from. However, most people buying these little guys won't care. If they look cool, and are eating and such, I can't see too many "lay people" caring too much that they aren't pure corns, or "red rat snakes." Besides, both the creamcicle and the anery have wierd patterns, and I'm tryin' to get some genetic grasp on that stuff.

Just my two cents.

AJ
King Donut Eater
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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

>>As everyone knows by now, I breed creamsicles.
So, obviously I do not have a problem with a guttata/emoryi mix.
A lot of people complain about how creamsicles are polluting the corn snake gene pool.
I can only say bull.
There are thousands and thousands of pure corns produced every year. You couldn't pollute the entire gene pool if you wanted to. The sheer numbers just make this impossible.
Now, at one time creamsicles were not as popular and there were a few people who passed these off as pure corns. Nothing can be done about that now but this wasn't a large enough number of snakes to cause a problem.
With the popularity of creamsicles increasing they cost more, on the average, then normal, anery and amel corns so there is no need to advertise them as anything other then what they are.
There are people who believe it is too hard to keep up with and people won't know if the snake they are getting has emoryi in it or not.
Once again I have to say Bull.
If you can keep track of the increasing number of "pure" corn morphs or componenets (bloodred comes to mind here) why the hell would it be any harder to keep track of creamsicles (snakes with emoryi).
Now I truly understand if people want a pure corn over a mix.
There is absolutely nothing wrong or strange about this.
But people really need to rethink thier reasoning when they come down so hard on creams. Some of the reasons don't really hold water.
I personally believe guttata/emoryi mixes to be intergrades as opposed to hybrids. I still haven't been presented with proof they are separate species. They are both listed as Elaphe or more recently Pantherophis aren't they?
I will not touch on the true hybrids.
As long as any offspring containing emoryi are listed as such there shouldn't be a problem.
One other point..If you breed a creamsicle to a pure corn...only the offspring are guttata/emoryi so you did nothing to pollute the corn, now did you?....lol
Oh well I am rambling but you may get my point or points.
creamsicle hatchlings...ha ha
I might as well give an update on my hatchlings while I'm on the subject.
Out of 20 eggs laid by Arwen (my first creamsicle) 1 died with a week leaving 19 to develope.
Well, they started hatching on June 9th and the last one hatched this morning.
Out of the 19 eggs 17 hatched successfully, 1 hatchling died due to a prolapse and 1 died half way out of the egg. When I opened that egg I found that the last 2 inches of the hatchling had not developed.
here are a couple of pictures I have already posted.
I droped my digital camera so now I can't get any new pics until I buy a new camera...bummer

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Remember, My posts are MY opinion only!
Jimmy (draybar)

I was looking at it the Creamsicles in this discussion with my friend the same as I look at Bci (Boa constrictor imperator) localities. There are a number of different localities of Bci, many of which are insular populations that have no contact with other localities of Bci, but they are still all the exact same species. Some of those localities are so small that the whole group could be lost genetically by mixing their bloodline in with other Bci. A good way to start a ruckus on the Boa Forum is to suggest mixing Colombian Bci with say, Hogg Island or Crawl Cay or pick-your-locality-Bci. Let's just say it starts a 'lively' debate. lol I can see the color appeal of mixing the Creamsicle with other morphs of corns, especially those that extra yellow would brighten & highlight existing colors or tones. And you're right in that keeping track of the Creamsicle traits should be no more difficult than keeping track of all the other hets. I think mostly it comes down to I'm predominantly a boa girl with a corn habit. I'm used to thinking in a certain manner and this is new territory. That's why I wanted more opinions on the subject to find out if my notions were either in line with other corn enthusiasts or if I was way out in left field somewhere.

Thanks to all for the input.

Raven

When you look at a Great Plains Rat and a Cornsnake, besides color, there isn't any other differences, scalation is the same....

Kerby...