Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Before I ask this question, let me state that this is not the way I keep my lizards, I just have questions regarding things I always hear about husbandry.

First off: the ultra-clean water thing. If monitors can eat carrion teeming with bacteria/ ammoinia, etc. Why can't they drink water with it? Like I said before< i don't practice the regular methods, not my radical thinking ways.

Second: Why is everyone so down on screen tops? People always act like people that use screen tops are dooming their monitors to death by dehydration. People who keep chameleons, a very high humidity requirement animal, look down on people who keep their chams in glass cages with little air circulation. SO I know it is possible to keep humidity up in a cage with a screen top, and it would also provide some extra air circulation.

This is just me being bored and questioning common husbandry methods that I don't understand. Please comment.

Joe

although I've never kept chameleons, my understanding is that they prefer relatively cool temperatures compared to a monitor. It's the combination of a hot basking light (a necessity with monitors) and a screen top that produces dehyrdration.

Chams are adapted to staying on branches 24/7, while monitors always return to their burrow, crevice, hollow, etc. Well almost always, except the hot hot nights in alice, where its too hot to stay in a crevice. Cheers FR

Yes, but don't we have the technology (a squirt bottle) to keep it humid enough in there to prevent dehydration?

That's not technology, that's a bandaid. Do you plan on sitting in front of an enclosure misting it 24/7? When you squirt with a bottle, that increases the humidity for a very short while. With a strong basking lamp and a screen top, you'll be lucky if your misting has any significance an hour later.

Rather than spending all of this time typing away on your computer trying to convince us that a screen top is good (you won't, it isn't), you could be spending time making a lid for your tank that's functional

I've tried a top that was only partially screened (it had screened gaps in the lid for the lights) and it really wasn't very good for the monitor.

Do you know how to read? I said I follow regulary husbandry pracices AKA no screen lid. Quote: "Before I ask this question, let me state that this is not the way I keep my lizards".

The question isn't whether or not I can read, but whether or not I could be bothered reading your post in that much detail. All I saw was you coming up for reasons a screen lid might be considered okay and I naturally jumped to the conclusion that you were yet another newbie asking the same question over and over until someone answered it in a way that suited you.

You are becoming old and disgruntled like myself and a few others.
Soon you will be called a "miserable old man".
Welcome to the cult... er... uh... club..

A while ago I was chatting to a friend about my grandfather, who died a few years ago at the age of 97. The friend commented that I was lucky, for longevity clearly runs in my family.

My response was that I wasn't looking forward to being a miserable, cranky old man, for it seemed my grandfather held on for so long through bile and spite and I didn't want to become like him.

After a few minute's thought, I said "well, I guess I already have miserable and cranky down pat, I'm just waiting on 'old' ".

lol

wow i never thought i was looked down upon for using a cage with a screen top for my young monitor. i always figured that eventually you build a cage about 4 by 8 because you can't find an appropriate glass cage to house your monitor. i personaly have cages of both styles and i have a savannah in a closed cage and a black throat in the glass cage. the black throat was doing real well and the savannah was not eating like a savannah should. well, as an experiment i cleaned the cages and swaped the moniters. sure enough the savannah started piging out and the black throat lost his appitite. before anyone says anything about temps don't, i know my stuff i have 12 years experience that may not be alot but it's enough to know what temps to use. so that is my pro argument for screen tops. i hape it helps.
P.S. i would like a reply

12 yrs experience from when you were 6 yrs old? If you call that experience. Anyways glass aquariums for any reptile Suck. They absorb heat and they are made for fish not reptiles.

John

I've been using a glass aquarium for my baby monitor and have found no problems with keeping the temps stable and high. I also keep my tortoise in one during the winter, and have had no problems there either. Have you had any experience with this? Thats why I made this post. People always follow the norms, and talk crap about everything else, and I'm sure 90% of the people that say "Oh yeah glass tanks are awful, don't use them", have never used them. I'm not trying to start an argument here or something, I'm sure there can be complications using screen tops or glass tanks if you don't take preautions, like using too small of a heat lamp or never misting the enclosure to prevent dehydration. Yes...

Joe

you know what joe i like that last message
the one thing that i notices about this site is that crap talking and people joining in with with the same opinion again and again. so im not sure if you read my first message and im sorry if you took it as an argument what i was trying to do was compair and contrast the two cage types and in my opinion costom made reptile glass cages came out on top for young monitores. and while i worked at the reptile store i never saw any signes of reptiles suffering from living in (reptile)glass cages. and yes even turtoises did well in them as juviniles. so i hope that helps. please adress any other questions that you think i can help with to me, kicknox.

Since you have 12 years of experience keeping monitors, could you post a photograph of one of your 12 year old monitors?

im sorry i said that i have 12 years experince with reptiles i didn't say anything about 12 year old minitors (i wish i had one to show you.) i will admitt i have only recently become a monitor guy and i would like to show them to you but i dont know how to post pics in this site maybe you can help me out with that.

oh and one more thing DK since you obviously know how to post pics and you know everything about keeping monitors. lets see some pics of you enclosers. that way i cant take notes on the way a true mastermind of monitor genious keeps his monitors.

You asked the wrong person that question. While DK and I surely do not agree on many things. He surely did a great job with his cages, hahahahahahahahahaha. Now this is funny. FR

Here's a front view, xjoex. To give you an idea of scale, the monitor visible on the lower right was 1.5metres in length (around five feet) when this photo was taken.

That's a normal sized door you can see in the background. There are nine foot ceilings in my place and the enclosure is a few inches from touching the ceiling.

a bit of the rockwork and leaf litter.

the reason I had asked for photographs of a 12 year old monitor is this: We were talking monitors, you said you had 12 years experience. If you were successful in keeping them healthy (the issue was all about enclosures for keeping monitors alive and healthy) it stands to reason you should have 12 year old monitors. Now you are telling me that you've had 12 years experience with reptiles, not monitors.

wow dk i will insert my foot in my mouth. the cage looks great and although i couldn't see the monitor in the cage i'm sure that he is healthy. the whole 12 years thing was brought up early in these posts when the question was asked are screen tops ok for lizards, it only recently became only monitors that were in question.
p.s. i would be happy to live in a cage like that. haha

Look at this photo, then back at the photo of the enclosure and you'll see two of the monitors in the original photo (there are three in there, actually, for there is one on the left hand side as well.

My apologies to xjoex, for I realise I should have been directing my comments at kicknox.

Kicknox, when we are talking about screen tops and lizards on a monitor forum, what other lizards would we be referring to?

dk you asked me what kind of lizards could use a screen top. well it was said by another writer that glass tanks are made for fish not reptiles end of story. and i was concidering lizards along with young monitors. lizards like leopard geckos, green iguanas (young), bearded dragons (young), ect and yes i even said young monitors can live in cages with screen tops. maybe you have to alter your care a bit to accomidate this cage type but they will work. are you saying everyone should make their own costom cage like you did for every animal they keep untill recently that would have ment i would need eight costom cages to house all my animals. could you help me find an official reptile site or recomend a book that preaches the eveils of screen tops. because as you would see if you look at my first post i never heard that it was that big of a problem.
ps. i would realy like to know how to post pics.

KICKNOX

I haven't asked you or anyone else what sort of lizard needs or uses or benefits from a screen top. All I've been saying is that they suck for monitors, and suck doubly for hatchlings, which dehydrate quickly. This is a monitor forum, I wasn't talking about geckos, bearded dragons or any other lizard. In fact, in another post I've even explained why a screen top would be okay for a chameleon while still being bad for a monitor.

Does this mean you should build custom cages for all of your monitors? If that's the only way for you to avoid screen tops, then so be it. If building custom cages is too much effort for your monitors, consider getting another reptile. Long term, monitors are effort, there's little getting around that. Do custom cages have to be like my lacie cage? No. That cage was built partially for my benefit as well the monitors'. It had to look nice as well as be functional, for it takes up a good chunk of my loungeroom. Custom cages for your monitors can be converted tubs, horse troughs or a dozen other things. They don't have to be pretty, just functional. An aquarium with a screen top isn't very functional, in my opinion (and from experience with my adult monitors when they were small).

No, I'm not going to look around for an 'official' site or book that bags screen tops, because most 'official' sites and books giving care information on monitors are full of outdated information. It wouldn't be hard to find an 'official' site or book somewhere advocating the use of newspaper as a substrate, but that doesn't make newspaper good. Anyone can be 'official' on the internet or in the publishing industry. Tell you what, though. I'll find you an 'official' site or book that bags screen tops if you find me an 'official' site that gives good information on breeding monitors Good luck.

As far as posting photos goes, upload low resolution images onto a photosite (photoisland.com or kingsnake's own photo hosting site), then post the link to your image in the image URL slot when you post.

That has to be one of the nicest enclosures i have seen to date in these forums. Is that your handy work? Also might i ask what type of monitors it houses? Couldn't really tell from the pics.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Yes, I made the enclosure in my garage, but I have my brother, nephew and a good friend to thank for helping me put all the bits together in my home.

I'm going to give you another guess on the monitors.

>>Yes, I made the enclosure in my garage, but I have my brother, nephew and a good friend to thank for helping me put all the bits together in my home.
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>>I'm going to give you another guess on the monitors.
>>
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Where did I find lacies? Well, it all started 3 1/2 years ago. I was at a party talking to someone whose female lacie had laid eggs that morning. He said "I'll give you a hatchling". Turns out he meant it, literally, for when I next heard from him several months later he said "your hatchling is ready" and refused to take money for it. That's how I got my first lacie.

they are truly some beautiful creatures thats i've been interested in for quite some time but finding them for sell, thats a whole nother story.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Drool!!! What a magnificent enclosure! Are those real rocks? If so, how did you attach them? If not, how did you make them look so real? You really have the best looking enclosure I've ever seen. You must have spent ages making it. I suspect that everyone who views your post is positively GREEN with envy. Your monitor enclosue is lots classier than my first house! Lucky lizards.

Leslie

Thanks. No, they aren't real rocks.

That is a nice cage. Looks like a lot of glass though... haha.

it's laminated glass - actually quite a good insulator.

It doesn't really matter, though, for lacies aren't tropical and I live in their range. As long as they can access hot basking spots, the rest is just gradient so the glass doesn't have to hold much heat in. The important thing is that it holds in humidity, which is also why the sliding glass doesn't go to the very top.

I've used aquarium type enclosures with juvenile monitors that had screen tops and found that the substrate would dry out entirely to fast and had to be misted 3,4,5 times daily. Also my monitors seemed to have a hard time shedding as compared to being in a close top. Not to mention they quickly out grow these enclosures. Now i dont doubt that a monitor can do fine in one prvided that you live in a humid area or take all the precautionary steps to ensure that your animal doesnt become beef jerky as Frank would call it. The reason i think most people oppose this method though is because of all the extra responsibilities and precautions that come along with keeping a monitor healthy in this type of setup. Close top enclosures are simply less of a hassle and allow a bit more room for error. And with all the impulse buyers today who do not take the time to research, screentops is just not something an experienced keeper would reccomend for obviouis reasons.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

monitorman315 you make good points and i respect your opinion. i only have one one question what monitors do your spray 3 to 4 times a day? savannahs and black throats? the are from a hot dry part of africa are they not? i have always provided a large soaking area and never have sheding problems. and i would not recomend a glass cage for anything but juvies. please reply to kicknox

Actually i was referring to my water monitor but i also keep savannas one of which was raised till about 8 months of age in 110 gallon aquarium style tank with screen top.. Even with it i had to mist several times to keep the dirt burrowable since i kept a 150f basking spot it tended to dry out more frequently than it would at lower temps. If i failed to do this or skipped a day i'd always find caved in burrows. And yes Savannah are from Africa but i think people confuse semi arid grasslands with desert dryness when its abit closer to tropical than desert.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

that though savannahs (i won't mention blackthroats because i have not owned one) have adapted to the droughts and high temps of their habitat, they tend to spend their time in their burrows during these times. I found in my experience with my captives that they tend to be more active and visible when the substrate is moist and temps are in the neighborhood of 80-83f as compared to dry and higher ambient temperatures.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

ok john, i didn't know that it was a crime to grow up with reptiles. i have more than experience i am well read in the books and magazines that concern reptiles. i also worked in a reptile store were i learned the care for each reptile. i made it my mission to know all that i can not like those idiots at petco. so maybe you have more experiance than me but my love for reptiles will continue for another 12, 24, 36, and god willing 48 years if im lucky. so now we get to that stupid remark about glass cages being made for fish is stupid and uneducated. there are companies (creative habitats) that pride themselves in making costom cages for reptiles with thin glass so that heat is not traped. in fact these cages cant even hold water. so how can a cage that is made for fish not hold water maybe you can explain that to me with all of your knowledge.
further more i know enough about reptiles not to put them in a fish tank i would never do that. i also saw that your screen name is arborial something which tells me that you know your stuff when it comes to arborial animals but guess what monitores are not arborial. but i will be so bold to say arborial reptiles need alot more ventalation than a glass cage can provide but come on we weren't talking about arborial reptiles.
ps. do you even keep monitors and what kind?

Was it well ventilated or could it have been stress or some other determining factor? Just curious because i've never had a appetite lost with monitors in either style enclosure.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

ya those are some good points and i actualy added a big vent in the big wood cage to help make that cage more monitor friendly.