Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm a fool, I think. I just acquired an Amazon tree boa Sunday from a pet store. I had built a spacious enclosure out of plywood with a sliding glass panel in the front. I had a few branches placed for him to climb also. Anyway, this morning I found him dead. My first reaction was to want to bring it back to the pet store and demand money back. But when I thought about it, the plywood must be pine, wich is poisonous to snakes, right? I have four other snakes, one of them for about four years now, this is the first one that I've lost. I deserve whatever critisism I get. My question is, if I lined the inside of the enclosure with plastic panels and sealed the corners with cauking, would it be safe for another snake? Or is it just too dangerous and enclosure must be junked?

I dont think it's your fault.A lot of people use plywood in makeing cage's.Cedar is Toxic and is loaded with phenols that are deadly to reptile's.Plywood is even recomended in book's for cage makeing material.I would bring the snake back a pet shop is the worst place to by an Amazon Tree Boa.You can put your post in the snake's in general forum you'll get a lot more reply's this forum is real slow ! !
Have A Good One ! !
Kenneth

Hey, There's also a forum under Herp Issue's for (Cage and Habitat Design)you can post there about your cage.If your gonna get another Amazon you'll need to use something to seal the wood against,the high humidity.You'll get some help there on what to use.If you are thinking about getting another Amazon you should keep your eye on the kingsnake classified's,under Tree Boa's and Python's and order a C.B.B. from a breeder pet shop's, not all but most are bad new's for reptile's.
Have A Good One ! !
Kenneth

Thanks Kenneth. I've felt like crap all day thinking it was all my negligence that it died. I'll go ahead and post the same message in the snakes in general forum. Thanks for your other advice too.
Darius

pine is toxic to reptiles but if it died in a day i seriously doubt that was the problem, especially if it was spacious. A lot of woods are toxic to reptiles that would not harm them in the wild..but once you place them in for a full time exposure in a closed space...its a whole different game..this is why I choose not to use any woods. I would still return it..amazond tree boas can be very hearty snakes but it sure is not a petstore animal.

I'd really like to know where some people get their info from, the National Inquirer? Pine is not toxic to snakes! I have a 2.1 group of amazons that I keep in a custom built pine cage that I bought from the East Bay Vivarium in '97. My ammies have been very happy and healthy in this enclosure, in fact they breed very regularly in this enclosure. Cedar does have oils that can be toxic, but try finding a cedar plywood reptile cage, good luck. I would definitely let the pet shop know that your animal didn't make it. Many factors could have contributed to the death of your ammie, some could be the stores fault, some yours, and some just chaulked up to nature doing it's thing, but I wouldn't say a pine cage was the cause. You might want to check a few things before investing in another ammie though. Make sure your temps and humidity are good and then try and get a c.b. healthy animal from the start. -Phil

here is a post made by Kelly Haller in response to some posts on pine in the anaconda forum. A user by DFR posted all about pine and how it is toxic to reptiles and why it should not be used. If you would like me to cut and paste those posts, that would be fine...I think this will help

Rich is correct in that pine oil is a toxic substance. I would never expose a snake to uncoated pine, or use pine shavings as a substrate. I have used a fair number of three-quarter inch plywood cages in the past to house a small colony of burmese pythons. This was before the plastic cages were readily available and more affordable. I did however make certain that the wood was well cured (dry with no strong pine smell or sap) and was well sealed with four coats of a commercial grade heavy enamel. I allowed the cages to set for several weeks before coating and then for a month or two after coating, before using them. I did not notice any problems with them during their use. I raised several consecutive generations of burmese, with highly successful reproduction, in those cages. I think in a properly cured and sealed cage, with decent ventilation, you should be all right. This however, this is just my opinion.

Kelly

dfr stated the whole thing pretty well here...I am not going to post all his citations to back himself up but if that needs to be done I suppose I could...there is a lot more written on this topic in the anaconda forum alone.

Herpetoculture is a young hobby. Much of what is "known" is opinion, speculation, and dogmatic preconception as well. Prejudice against some small ( or large ) fact can spawn a new belief, or denial system.
` There's a lot of conjecture, and anecdotal story-telling. "The fish usually gets bigger, each time the story is told."
` Then, there are the folks who find something easily deniable because it is too inconvenient, if it's true. And visa-versa.
`
`
` The truth is that many things which are mildly noxious can become a big problem when the critter is trapped inside a cage with it, or in a cage made from it. Add a little heat, a chemical oxidant, or an abrasive situation, and you've got a sick critter and you're suddenly trying to find out what went wrong. Coating, and trying to seal a noxious/toxic substance with enamel, or anything else is ridiculous.
` Also, it ain't just wood. Many plants, and man made materials, when in the confines of a cage, become noxious, and eventually toxic. The can simply suppress the snake's immune system. Then, nature takes it course.
`
` I think the critter's well-being is worth getting over "hating it", and "being confused" by it. You've got them in your power, so keep your eye on the ball.

I personally know of quite a few people that have kept literally hundreds of reptiles and amphibions for over fifteen years and I've never heard of a "healthy" animal having complications due to pine. Both Greg Maxwell and Trooper Walsh, leaders in captive breeding and husbandry of Green Tree Pythons, use pine cages with no problems, and GTP's are not a species that are healthy in a less than ideal environment. I'm not saying that I wouldn't believe you if I saw some well researched and documented research, but I haven't. I have seen hundreds of healthy animals live and reproduce in or near pine enclosures. I haven't seen them dropping like flies or even in slitely elevated numbers as compared to plastic or glass enclosures. Basically it comes down to someone dowing the research and documenting it, because I haven't seen the high numbers of health issues and deaths to believe it, just 'cause someone said it on da' net. Thank you, Phil

this came from Melissa Kaplan's page...I know it isnt the best document but it certainly is enough to believe we dont know for sure so it is possible it could cause harm and isnt the best thing to use. I stated before it was not likely but I will not go as far as to rule out all possibility...he should still take the animal back because a day is not acceptable and it would not have had the effects yet. but i would use caution when using again....sorry i did not refference this better...please to law suits

"Despite its widespread use in the pet trade and for a variety of pet animals, there remains some confusion over the use of cedar--and by extension, pine--as a substrate for animals, especially for prey animals and reptiles.

In the Winter 1994 issue of Wildlife Rehabilitation Today, the director of a bird conservation association stated the question succinctly: "Everyone just says they have 'heard' cedar is harmful, but no one can supply a source of this information, via a study or an authority."

Dr. Richard Evans, a veterinary pathologist who is also associated with the Orange County (CA) Department of Public Health, responded to this question by discussing laboratory findings and practical experience in the use of cedar shavings as has been found by study and anecdotal evidence involving rodents, cage birds and poultry.

Dr. Evans states that the extracts of cedar and other soft woods, such as pine, contain a number of aromatic (volatile) compounds including hydrocarbons, cedrene and cadrol. Naphthalene (the active ingredient in moth balls) is also a member but is a distinct compound.

These compounds are known irritants of skin, and cause not only irritation, but the degeneration and death of the cells in the respiratory tract. Once this destruction is set in motion, the animals' defensive barrier is eroded, enabling infection by various microorganisms and secondary microbial infections of the lungs. The medical literature notes increased rates of respiratory infections found in poultry which is raised with cedar shavings in the poultry house. Owners of caged birds have noted similar infection rates, particularly in poorly ventilated areas.

In addition to the skin irritation and respiratory tract damage, these compounds activate enzymes in the liver which results in abnormal metabolism of certain drugs, something especially critical for animals undergoing antibiotic therapy or surgery.

Dr. Evans notes that there is also some evidence to indicate that reproductive rates may be affected, and cancers promoted, through prolonged contact with these compounds. And, as with any other chemical or disease condition, the very young and very old are especially at risk.

Symptoms of irritation include clear to discolored fluids discharged from eyes and nose (which may be mistaken for a regular microbial respiratory infection), sneezing, coughing, constant blinking or other signs of light sensitivity, irregular breathing (dyspnea) and possibly regurgitation. In severe cases, the animal may fall unconscious with or without convulsions. Secondary bacterial, viral and fungal infections are all the more likely to attack once the cells of the respiratory system are damaged and destroyed.

While reptiles and amphibians are not birds or rodents, this is nonetheless important for herpetoculturists. If a rodent or bird skin becomes irritated through fur and feathers, think how much faster that may occur in a furless and featherless reptile or amphibian. Snakes and lizards frequently burrow into their shavings substrate, becoming completely covered by the material, breathing air through the layers of piled up shavings.

With the similarity of the symptoms of cedar toxicity to other common reptile ailments, it is easy to see why toxicity may go undiagnosed. We will never know just how much that housing breeders on cedar may have affected their reproductive success, nor how many recurrent respiratory infections are due to other than stress and too-cool temperatures conditions in the animal's enclosure. Birds and rodents are both warm-blooded animals and as such have consistently rapid metabolisms. Herps, on the other hand, have metabolisms that fluctuate depending upon their environmental temperature and mealtimes. Many herps that don't feel well will stay in the coolest part of their enclosure, thus slowing down their metabolism, and slowing the effects of any substance ingested or absorbed into their bodies.

You might want the rethink buying prey that has been raised or housed on cedar. Evaluate the health of every animal whom you have housed on cedar and pine (after you clean out the cedar and any residual oils in their enclosure). If you see pet stores housing rodents on cedar or pine, you may want to discuss this matter with them, requesting them to change and, if they fail to, purchase your prey and pet rodents elsewhere."

I highly doubt that Pine had anything to dowith the death of your snake. From what you describe I can deduce 2 possible causes.

The first, and probably most obvious is that you got a bum snake. NEVER buy treeboas from pet shops folks, chances are they are going to be in really rough shape. There are enough captive born animals out there now that you can readily get one from a breeder, or even an importer, and have better chances for survival. By the time these animals make it to pet shops they are stressed, heacily parasitized, and usually not kept in the most ideal of places.

Secondly, you mentioned you used caulking...was it a kitchen and bathroom caulk by any chance? Many cualkings used around "wet" areas like sinks and showers have a built-in fungicide that slowly seeps some nasty fumes into the enclosure over time. This fungicide WILL kill you snake in time. Always buy 100% silicon caulking, preferably for use in aquaria. Make sure they don't contain fungicide.

Air your cage out very well for at least 2 weeks, you shouldn't detect any odor at ll when you stick your head into it.

I don't really buy for one minute that Pine had anything to do with it. I'd have alot of dead snakes on my hands if that were the case...

Good luck and keep your head up.

Danny

Thanks for all the advice, everyone. I hadn't checked the forum for a while 'cause I never received an email informing me that there were new posts, like it's supposed to. A day after I had returned the snake I opened the enclosure and a strong fume flowed out. It might be pine(turpentine, I guess) fumes, or it's possible that they've got some kind of treatment on it, but it's strong. And I'd like to clear something up that I had said in my first post. I had not lined the inside of the enclosure with anything. Just newspaper on the bottom. My question was IF I lined the inside with plastic and sealed the corners with plain silicone, would the enclosure then be safe(?). I am not eager to throw another animal in it until I've made sure that I've modified it enough to have made it completely safe.
Again, I thank everyone for their help.