Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi! I'm new to this forum but not Kingsnake itself. I was reading over some of the older posts and noticed some about people's reactions when they find out you have snakes, and their disgust at you feeding them mice and rats.

Snakes must eat, this is a fact. And unfortunately, the best food we have available for them is rats, mice, and small lizards, preferably prekilled (humanely) and frozen. We feed dogs lamb, cow, and chicken after all. We feed cats the same, plus fish. (I'll never forget the comment I got by a woman holding a dog and declaring she'd 'never own an animal that had to eat another to live. Wonder what's in her dogfood? Petunias??).

These comments some people make to herpers are very rude, but on the other side of the coins, some comments herpers make to rodent fanciers are extremely rude as well. I have rats and mice, and they are my babies. My rats come when called by name, give me kisses, and perform the funniest antics. I have mice so tame they'll jump on my hand and run around my shoulder, and give me kisses on the cheek. I love these guys as much as anyone loves their dog, cat, or snake. And I find it just as rude and hurtful when the first comment out of people's mouths when they find I have rats as pets is "I have a snake if you ever want to get rid of your rat!" And they think its funny!

Honestly. I don't go around saying, "i have a dog if you ever want to get rid of your snake". That's childish and rude and tasteless.

I don't agree with anyone putting down or being so snide about creatures that other people so clearly care a great deal about. I'm not saying anyone HERE has ever done that, by any means! I would hope that everyone here would be tactful and considerate enough not to. Rat owners face quite a lot of prejudice, just as snake owners do. I'm just pointing out a parellel.

Now, for the positive side of my post. I'm seriously considering getting a corn snake. I've been extensively researching but any info anyone can provide me would be a tremendous help, including the best place to order frozen mice from. And what makes cornsnakes, in your opinion, the best snake to get? What are their high points, and their faults?

I'm also including a pic of my baby girl Starr, who I had to put to sleep the day after this pic was taken. She was suffering from severe anemia from an unknown cause, and I sat up all night taking care of her before I made the decision that she had to be put out of her misery.

Thanks all for your help!!

Welcome to the forum. I think you will find the kind of folks you are looking for. If you are looking for rude then there are some of them here. And if you are looking for kind, considerate, and helpful then you will find some of them here also. The forums have been a great support for me and my hobby. I would like to comment on your pet rats. When my children were little they each had a pet rat. They were fabulous pets. And they NEVER bit anyone no matter what was being done to them. I would bath them in the kitchen sink and sometimes they would squeal a little because they didn't like what I was doing. However, never a bite, never. We had a wonderful experience with them. With that in mind I wonder how difficult it would be to be feeding what looks like maybe a pet? I noticed when I am hatching a lot of eggs my appetite for chicken eggs declines sharply. Cornsnakes are facinating, docile, beautiful, and rewarding. I believe they also lower blood pressure when you are holding them as it is extremely relaxing. They eat once a week, defecate maybe once a week, don't bark, and don't cause allergies. Corns are great.

n/p

Unfortunately, rude people are everywhere and for some reason seem to be the most vocal of folks. I've found some wonderful people on the forums I frequent here on KS as well as other snake-related forums. There are a few 'less than helpful' folks I've run across from time to time, but they seem mostly to be a minority. However, I think you'll find this a friendly and helpful place.

I've kept hamsters, mice & rats in the past as both feeders and pets. While I liked my hamsters quite a bit, and they had the corner market on 'cute', I never found them to be as clever as the mice I kept, much less the rats. My word of advice in regards to keeping both rodents & snakes as pets, try to make sure to keep them as far apart as your home allows and don't have the scent of your rodent pets on you when handling your snake. While I have never been bitten by one of my corns, I don't typically handle them while they are in feed mode either - which the scent of mice could initiate. Basically, use caution.

As a source for feeder rodents, the only company I now use is www.rodentpro.com because they don't require a minimum order, the animals are of excellent quality, and the prices are very reasonable. Why get a corn? First there is their calm disposition and willingness to be handled. Couple that with their beauty - they come in a rainbow of colors to suit just about any taste. They stay an easily managable size for their entire lives, never getting so large that a single person can't handle and care for them. They are typically good feeders (at least in my experience) and will usually accept rodents as prey, unlike some other species of snakes. The care requirements are simple, not requiring great extremes in heat or humidity. And they typically don't require very large enclosures compared to many species. Enough room to explore and exercise is about it. You can make their enclosures as simple or elaborate as you please. All in all, they are the perfect introductory snake for the new keeper.

As Kathy Love mentioned, their only drawback is they are addictive. I have four now and am adding a 5th in the near future, despite the fact that I used to be a confirmed boa addict. It seems the corns just sneak in under the radar.

Raven

I'm mean no offense, but cornsnakes eat rat ( big corns eat rats I should say ), so be VERY careful about having them near each other, once they start constricting, that IT. One more thing, wash your hands after holding the rats, a snake may be triggered to bite your hand from the smell. GOOD LUCK

O by the way , my best friend has a HUGE white rat whos name is Mr BO-Jangles, hes the coolest thing!! I love letting him crawl all over me , its hilarious and ticklish!!

An addition to what Raven's said, concerning feeding mice when you also have them as pets, I don't know if this would work for you, but I've never liked the look of albino mice, but all the colored and patterned mice are so cute. I can feed albino mice no problem, but it's a bit different when feeding the colored mice. If you're the same this may work for you.

I too like Rodentpro, but I did just receive a bunch of rodents from them recently and some were agouti, some black. While I've had to get over this (my snakes do need to eat), next time I order I'll have to ask if they could send only albinos.
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alstiver@hotmail.com

1.0 2001 Coral snow cornsnake
0.1 2002 Pastel Ghost poss Het Amelanistic cornsnake
1.1 2002 Bloodred cornsnakes
0.1 1998 Het Hypo, Het Caramel cornsnake
1.0 2000 Hypo Het Caramel cornsnake

Ok well this sure is an intereesting post and here's my side of it. I own 2 corn snakes I tend to breed in a few years as they are so young, one escaped and hasn't been found since last feeding on the 6th, just hope it's in shed and I can't find it and it will turn up someday, if not off to get another one and know what mistakes ive made and not to make them again. I raise my own food and have all my rats as tame as tame can be,babies even and it doesn't bother me to turn around and use them as food. Mice aren't pets in this house, strictly food and have had a hard time keeping them around without cannibalism, so currently i am fresh out of mice and waiting on rat pups. I recommend corns and now Boas and the balls at least mine, has an attitude but eats only in it's cage, just have to be confident what mood it's in and to know your snakes so you won't give it a bad rap. My corn follows me when i place her on a branch and walk around she follows me and stretches out to me and when I place my arm near her, she glides to safety, pretty weird but comforting also.
I too have seen the most ridiculous ppl fighting on forums and when they ask every question there is to ask about husbandry and are having problem after problems, I wonder why there wasn't more studying to figure out the ways to possibly correct it also. There are several ways to accomplish one task (humidity,heat) and have to experiment with it is all. Hard to find a good place to lay one's head now adays.
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My roomates are 1BP,1BCI2corns,Rotti,3cats,desert scorpions, and snake food AKA the food chain. See my kids at: http://community.webshots.com/user/diggy415

Everyone at works knows I have snakes.At least once or twice a month someone is trying to unload there kids pet guinee pig,gerbils,rabbits,rats,mice,etc on me.And they all have the same dumb look when I tell them no.There are pets,and then there's food.As I get older its getting harder for me to feed fresh killed,let alone an animal that has been loved and cared for.

And the guy told me if I ever wanted to get rid ……No not really I’m just kidding (and offending the entire Chinese population at the same time, sorry China) I was just at the local pet store on Sunday and they had a hairless rat that they had raised from a pup. The animal was dog tame and did not even stay in a cage. It was sleeping on a cat perch in the store and you could pet it and it would look for the attention! It was the coolest thing I have ever seen, So I do have to admit that rodent can make pretty good pets if hand raised. But how are you going to feel, feeding off animals that you are also so found of? I know you realize that snakes have to eat too, but if you are found of rodents isn’t kind of strange to feed them off too?
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Little Lawry's seasoning salt and some hot coals.What a meal.I wonder why they havent made catburger helper?

really.....

brother ate smoked puma.....says it's good ......

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people.........people are stupid.........
really......really.........

Actually, I keep several cages of rats and the breeders are all pets. They are treated like kings, decked out in a converted large dog crate with levels, a swing, toys, etc. They all have names.

However...

The babies are fair game. My own personal rule is that if the eyes aren't open, they're feeders. Since I have a collection of corn and rat snakes, I don't need anything larger than a rat pup to feed, anyway.

The elder rats are euthanized humanely when their time comes, frozen, and given to someone with a boa. Once they're gone, it'd be a shame to just let them go to waste. Circle of life and all that. But, then again, whenever we'd lose a pet growing up, they were buried where they got 'recycled' and reentered the food chain and lived on.

Everyone has their own point of view and are entitled to it. You do what you're comfortable with and avoid what you aren't.

To be honest, there are a lot of insensitive idiots in the world. When someone hears I keep snakes (or rats) and tells me the only good snake (rat) is a dead snake (rat)...well, that deserves no response whatsoever. It's not worth trying to communicate with idiots.

LOL, I can't help but hear "Oh, I'm sorry" in the back of my mind in reference to the fact that said 'person' can't comprehend another's point of view and respect it.

The "Oh, I'm sorry" is in the tone from the movie Orgazmo:

Joe: (concerned) Shouldn't we call the police?
Girl: (Laughs) Joe, the police can't help. Geez, where are you from, Iowa or something?
Joe: (all innocent and serious) No, Utah.
Girl: (suddenly concerned looking, like she'd heard he was dying) Oh, I'm sorry.
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~~~Hurley

Isn't it amazing the lengths some people will go to just to TRY make us herp lovers feel like horrible people? I am a preschool teacher and bring my snakes to visit on a regular basis and I STILL get comments from fellow staff about how cruel it is to feed them mice! Even after I've explained it all and ended with "The snake's got to eat too! God made them this way... what are they supposed to eat?" I also add "You eat beef and chicken don't you??" And I've had to opportunity to say to someone more than once..."Soooooo....... what do think is in your dog's food? Carrots????" ROFLOL some people aren't too impressed by this response...hmmmm, do I care? Nope!! LOL

We get our fuzzies at a local reptile place.... we're on a first name basis there!!! Its easier for us to do that since they are so close than to have any shipped.

Corn snakes are the BEST!!!! And very addictive!!! Though I love my GBK, I am hooked on my corn! And hubby and I are always looking to expand our happy little family!!
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Becki, loved by:

1 pet hubby
1 fur-angel, Great Dane, Lucky
1 lab/great pyr. mix, Bandit
1 grey banded king, Nitro (aka The Pig!)
1 snow corn, Nessy

I owned and loved mice and rats in the past.... primarily for my work and the kids. I see it all as the cycle of life... just as it is for everything.
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Becki, loved by:

1 pet hubby
1 fur-angel, Great Dane, Lucky
1 lab/great pyr. mix, Bandit
1 grey banded king, Nitro (aka The Pig!)
1 snow corn, Nessy

Just had to add a couple cents to the "rudeness" discussion.... I usually hang out at the feeder forum but I've been lurking here for years. (six, maybe?)

I, too, am a teacher and have had in my special education classroom everything from rats and mice to hissers and giant African millipedes.... and of course snakes.

Nothing like having a parent/teacher conference when my goal is to discuss the child's progress but I end up fielding their questions about the critters in the classroom!

Most of the time, whether from co-workers, children, their parents, or friends.... the reactions I get range from curiosity and fascination to fear and occasionally "disgust". Rarely are people rude. But those inevitable questions about feeding mice to snakes always got me thinking.

Eventually I came to a conclusion that perhaps the biggest problem people have, although I doubt they are aware of it, is with the concept of feeding *whole prey* to an animal. I've often suggested, kindly of course, that if human children required whole prey to meet their nutritional needs, every mother in the world would be out there with their shotguns, packages at the meat counter would look quite different, and no one at all would have an issue with what snakes eat. This tends to bring about an understanding of the concept, albeit grudgingly!

So, just thought I'd share. Great discussion subject, thanks to Ravyn11 for bringing it up here. As for your question about corns, my experience with a corn in the classroom was incredibly positive. Even my most "wiggly" kid was calm and relaxed when it was time to hold "Marlene." =)

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Rebecca
TSBabe66@hotmail.com
Honored to moderate at Snakefeeders, a great place to buy/sell/trade feeder animals. Come check us out! http://groups.yahoo.com/group/snakefeeders/

I also kept mice and rats as pets, and have a cornsnake (so far been able to resist the impulse to buy another cornsnake, mostly because I haven't been to the reptile show I want to go due to financial reasons...once there LOL with money to burn, who knows what I will bring home). I bred mice and rats for snake food as well as having a few set aside as just pets. Unfortunately all my original pet mice died of one thing or another. WHen I got the cornsnake I brought a couple extra mice to breed as food and sold the excess to other snake owners in my area. Then I bought rats, found out they are much more intelligent than mice, can actually be trained not to poo and pee all over me (actually didn't have to train them at all, they figured it out themselves cause after the first couple times of me holding them, they stopped pooing on me and when they really had to go, they just stopped moving around. When I realized that was why t hey didn't move anymore, I always put them into their cage and they immediately eliminated. I rewarded them with cheerios to reinforce that behaviour). Kind of sad I had to find homes for them all when I moved but plan on getting some more soon, which I can figure out my budget.

Anyway, moved a bit off track there, but I see no reason why a person can't have mice and rats as pets and breed them to feed to snakes/reptiles. I don't feed off the mice/rats I designate as pets though, they get a luxury cage instead of just a plain old rubbermaid container with more toys etc.

I have no problem feeding my snakes live mice. God is good, he made nature a certain way for a reason.

I can understand the point of view that mice make good pets, but to be honest, we had some pretty cool pigs and cows on my cousin's farm in Missouri. They still tasted good too. If that offends anyone, I think you have the problem, not me. Meat comes from somewhere, and what can I say, bacon tastes good. Pork chops taste good.

I don't go out of my way to offend people that keep mice or rats as pets. If someone approaches me in a pet store and asks, I'll tell them. If they are offended, I'll do my best to explain it to them. If they are still offended, I tell them not to own a snake, simple as that.

My two cents,

AJ
King Donut Eater

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1.0 Hypo Okeetee - Wesley (Princess Bride)
0.1 Ghost - Sydney (Scream)
2.0 Striped Amel - Jay and Aiden (Kevin Smith movies)
1.0 Snow - Silent Bob (Kevin Smith movies)
0.1 Anery - Columbia (Rocky Horror)
1.0 Creamcicle - Brandon (Mallrats)
0.1 Zig Zag Anery - Pepper (didn't name her)
0.1 Normal - Bindy (Croc. Hunter)
0.1 Motley - Craven (Underworld)

This guy will only eat fresh killed.He wont touch anything else period.In the pic he just finished shedding and plopping.

You've all been very succinct and helpful. I do appreciate everyone's input, and I'm glad to see that many of you share my point of view.

I'm still going to do quite a bit of research but it's looking more and more like I will get a corn. I plan on doing so after the majority of my rodent population (most rescues, I do not breed) has gone to the Bridge. Right now I have nine rats and fourteen mice, most of which are over a year in age, so it won't be that long a wait. If I do still have some when I get the snake I will take the utmost care. They will be in seperate rooms and I will wash thoroughly between contact with them. As for the question of whether or not I will have difficulty feeding my snake something I view as a lively and loving pet, the answer is this.

So long as I am not the one that has to euthanize the animal, and so long as I know the animal was raised well and was euthanized humanely, I will not have a problem with it. The way I see it, it's arriving at my door already deceased and frozen for use. To not use it would literally be an insult to the animal. It would mean it died for nothing. Animals were made for specific purposes in life. Snakes must eat. It is not their fault what creatures they were designed to eat. Giving the rats and mice a humane death is not cruel to them. Dumping them in the snake tank alive would be cruel...to the prey item as well as the snake. A friend of mine had a gorgeous rosy boa he fed live rats too all the time. Never had a problem, he used to brag. Until one day a rat regained consciousness halfway down the snake's throat and nearly chewed its head off from the inside out. Horrible thing to see, and my friend was devestated, and swore off live feeding right then and there.

Someone, I don't recall who it was (forgive me ) mentioned breeding mice and having a big problem with cannibalism? This surprised me, as mice are not normally cannibalistic in nature. Mice do not kill each other with the intent to eat each other. That's a dangerous way to go about obtaining food. It is common, however, for a mouse to eat another mouse that has died from other causes...including injuries sustained from fights (mice can be very territorial, especially male mice). They do it to dispose of the carcass so that it does not draw predators to their nest. Male mice, unless they've been raised together, usually cannot live together. They will fight and the strongest will either injure the other one or stress it out so much that it will die from starvation or merely from always being on edge. I have kept males together successfully, however, so long as they were related and never seperated. I have one tank with three boys in it that have been together since birth and they just celebrated their first birthday. Occasional tussles, but never any serious fights or any injuries.

Anyway, I digress. Again, thank you all for your help. I hope you don't mind my lingering about and asking more questions as I continue to research getting a corn (or two!) as a pet in the future. I will definately look over the Rodentpro website and compare their prices to some other frozen shippers I found. Thanks!