Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just moved to Texas and took a road trip over the Memorial Day weekend to see some of the Lower Rio Grande Valley. I stopped in to explore the Santa Ana National Wildlife Refuge near Alamo and Pharr and found this little guy crawling along the the wooden decking on one of the paths. He was too excited to hold still long enough for a proper photo so I asked a couple of Mexican tourist ladies to use my camera and take a picture of me holding him. They were initially terrified but we chatted for a bit (while he bit the dickens out of my hand!) and one finally agreed to do it. Her hands were shaking so badly that this is the only photo which was somewhat in focus. I thanked them and sent the little guy on his way. About an hour later, saw a second Drymarchon, about three feet long, hunting along the edge of a pond there. Really quite a thrill to see such an impressive animal just doing its thing in the wild and I can see why people are so fond of them.

Erik,
Nice find! It's sort of rare to find juvenile or neonate Indigos in the wild.

However, I would caution you against catching them (and especially posting pictures on the web of yourself holding a wild-caught Indigo). They are protected in Texas. I'm sure that law also states that it is a crime to catch or otherwise molest them. I know for sure that Florida and Georgia law prohibits touching them and I have heard of several cases of people being charged for it even though the snake was immediately released....in one case a man was simply trying to get an Eastern Indigo out of the road in Florida so it wouldn't get run over and was charged with molesting a protected species. The states that protect Indigos are serious about it and don't cut breaks for anything, no matter how innocent the intentions.

One of the problems with this is that you can inadvertently introduce diseases into the population by handling them and releasing them (especially if you keep snakes at home). Some of these diseases could have the potential of wiping out a population. This is also one of the big problems with trying to repatriate a species from captive stock.

It's hard to believe that the states protecting these species would rather have a road kill than move the animal to safety. I can understand the fear of transmitting a disease, but as Dean pointed out yesterday, road kill is probably the #1 cause of population decline in Indigos.
Robert

I agree, but the problem comes about in enforcement. How does the Wildlife Officer know what the person's intentions really are? One of the most productive ways of catching snakes is road cruising. An unscrupulous person that is out road cruising for snakes comes across the crown jewel of snakes crossing the road...he grabs it up and is headed back to the car with it when the Wildlife Officer rolls up on him. What's he going to say? He's going to tell the officer that he was just trying to get it out of the road, of course...remember..he's unscrupulous. I've never met a guilty criminal...at least if you listen to what the criminal says. The Wildlife Agencies are charged with protecting the species and doing what it takes to ensure that no one damages the populations of endangered wildlife. The only way they can effectively do that is with a zero-tolerance policy. The laws clearly state that you can't touch or otherwise molest the animals. If you can chase the animal off the road without touching it, then I would think that that would be OK, but I wouldn't bank on it not being considered molesting the animal. What I would do is to simply block the road with my truck (if it were a two-lane road) and wait for the snake to crawl off on his own. If I had to explain to another irate driver what I was doing and why, that's OK. A reasonable person would understand...if they aren't reasonable then I don't care if they understand or not.

An understandable arguement old herper. Which is one of the problems with law enforcement. Common sense tells you that most people will not understand why you are holding up traffic for A SNAKE! Some of them would swerve to hit it thinking that they are doing a good deed.

Assisting the animal off the road hugely out weighs the ridiculous assumption that we might spread disease to these animals that they do not come in contact with all on their own. Have you ever gone snake hunting in a dump? Human disease and pollution is out there. Lying on new asphault on a warm day presents a danger from fuems rising from it, which are damaging to the snake's lung (not to mention cars).

This is where two things are needed. The first being education (especially for the officers).

The second is a broader interpretation of the law. If an officer see's someone carrying a snake-not to his car-but off the road, then common sense should prevail. That the officer is on the sight means that the snake is saved and will go on it's way. Too much protection is as bad as none.

It's really the old protect them to death problem. But in the end it should be the purpose of the law, NOT the letter of the law that should weigh in on this.

A few years back I confiscated a w/c eastern Indigo from a pair of poachers (it had a bad neck wound). I treated and held it till Fish and Game came and picked it up a few hours later. My information helped them catch the poachers. What was sad was two zoo's I called told me I was wrong to try and save it.

Common sense needed badly here....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree with you, too much protection can do as much harm as too little...

I commend you for confiscating & treating that snake!

Eric

...I'll start worrying about it. In the meantime, TDPW can put it on my tab. It was the same thing in California: "Watch out with the pulchra, careful about the boas, watch yourself in Anza". Oddly enough, my tab got pretty big after 15 years of herping there and I skipped out of town without paying that one. One observation I have made is that Texas is a lot less pro-conservation and "informed" about native herps (other than in West Texas) than California was, so I'll roll the dice and take my chances here. Thanks again for the cautionary thoughts, though. BTW, I assume you're joking about the disease-transmission from human hands thing, right? Because this really has never happened before. Best regards,

Erik

No, I'm not joking. How do you know it's never happened before? And....if it hasn't happened before, does that preclude the possibility that it can happen? I know for sure that diseases have been transmitted from collection to collection in just that manner. What would be the difference between vectoring a disease from your collection to another collection and vectoring it from your collection to a wild animal?

As far as the laws regarding capturing a molesting wild Indigos...I was only trying to help you stay out of trouble. I had no intentions of insulting you or telling you what to do or not do...I just didn't know if you were aware of the scope of the laws or not. You are, of course, free to use or ignore any information or advice offered.....

The whole "disease thing", that is. Though I really don't keep snakes theses days, I look for them as hard as ever. In California, I would see the same Cal Kings, Rubber Boas, or Crotalus at the same rock pile each year. I'd pick them up, look at them, remember them from some photos I took or because of their scars, wish them good luck and send them on their ways with hopes that I would see them again the next year. And, I usually would. Of all the things a snake has to worry about: Predators, getting smashed by a car, drought, hunger, getting handled by a benevolent human is the last thing to worry about. Disagreeing with you politely, of course, but when has there been a documented instance of a wild snake population being compromised by this type of activity? Considering all the bad things that usually happen when humans run into snakes and all the room there is for improvement in this area, I don't find much time for silly and trivial scare tactics. Thanks though.

Like I said...I'm only trying to help you keep out of trouble...and stating some of the possible reasons for the laws. I'm not here to attest to the likelihood of transmitting diseases ike that, I don't have enough information one way or another to testify to that. I know that it has definitely happened in private collections, so I can't see why it couldn't happen in wild populations....if you cleaned your cages at home, didn't shower or change clothes, then went out herping for the afternoon...I think it's possible. It's not a scare tactic...I don't know what the reason for that would be.

Anyway, you now know what the laws say...if you want to ignore that it is certainly your business...at least you won't be blind-sided with a law you didn't know about if something happens while you are out herping.

Like I said in my first post, that's an exciting find. Juvenile and neonate Indigos are rarely seen in the wild. I just don't want to see you get in trouble when your intentions are good.

I have heard from several sources that it just depends where you are and who the agent is.
Some of them are VERY informed. I know the officers in and around Big Bend are well informed on herps…and they cite people regularly.

Then again, there are the good ol’ boy types that neither care about nor can identify snakes. Some of them probably kill them themselves. I have met some very ignorant fish and game enforcement agents and some very sharp ones.

That’s really beside the point though. I don’t think that fear of enforcement agents is likely to stop anyone from doing anything with herps. There simply aren’t enough of them, and it’s just too easy to be discrete.

Let’s face it, if you or I or any avid herper wanted to poach indigos, we’d poach indigos. And we wouldn’t get caught. But that’s not why we don’t do it. We don’t do it because we know the impact that taking a rare snake from the wild can have on a population. We genuinely care about the status of the wild populations.
EVERY wild indigo can impact their population.

I’m not sure how real the threat of transmitting disease by handling them is…but I’m not going to shoot down oldherper’s idea. I don’t think there is enough data to justify it one way or the other. I think we all know it’s best to observe and not molest wild animals…but the temptation for a herper to at least hold it in their hands is SO hard to resist isn’t it? You see it, you want to GRAB it!

If I saw an indigo crossing a road and it looked as if it were vulnerable (not moving fast, traffic, etc) I’d grab it and move it. I know I would. There’d be no stopping me.

But…if it were in it’s natural habitat, just doing what indigos do…it would probably be more interesting to just watch it, of course it would probably see me and run for cover.

Bottom line…yes it’s illegal to handle the animals so I can’t recommend it to anyone, but if you do…just put it back as close to where you found it as is safe for the snake.

My 2 cents

Dean

Even though this isn't the "tortoise" forum, I have assisted Gopher tortoises across the street in Florida.
If I had to stop traffic to let one of those cross, I'd be arrested for loitering.
But with a snake, I'd think that getting out of your car would make them take off like there's no tomorrow just because they're so skittish in the wild.

If one of the NWR staff or a local game warden had come across you with that snake in your hands they would have known exactly what species it was.

While there are regions of the US where most LE and conservation officials don't know the snakes, most reasonably informed people in southernmost Texas (especially in Santa Ana NWR) know indigo snakes. They may not recognize any other species (other than atrox), but they do know indigos.
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Chris Harrison

I stopped in at the little visitor's center there and asked the gal if Indigos are common here because I had just seen two. She had no idea what I was taling about. "Big black snake, real active. Seen many???" No idea....

Yeah, I can see that. The little gal in the information center probably wouldn't know a thing. However....you can bet your butt the actual enforcement officers that work in the areas where Indigos live know what they are.

Hey OH!
I live in Indiana. The Indigo does not range up here but I haven’t met one DNR Officer here that doesn’t know what an Indigo looks like and its status.

To have your picture taken and announcing you have a wild caught TX indigo in your hands and were you are is looking for trouble. Not to mention putting it on here for the world to see and big brother. Hint!

I have to agree with you OH about vectoring harmful viruses. I don’t care if its not documented. If you have any scientific knowledge or background at all or worked with any viral pathogens you would not touch any wild animal especially an Indigo in the wild. If you love the animal why take the chance.

Buy the way OH I fixed the eye cap problem on that new BT. Your suggestion worked like a dream. Thank you.

My 2x C

Dann

Hi Dann! Glad to hear that worked for you.

...TDPW can put it on my tab and frankly, I'm not too worried about anybody knocking on my door about it. Maybe it's a phenomenon of the internet, but now everybody is an authority, ready to lecture the next guy about his version of morality. Back in California, for example, I remember that guy who had the binder full of zonata pictures, knew every locale of rosy boa and waited like a hawk to correct the fellow who spoke up about this or that. But when pressed for details, had never actually caught that species or much of anything else for that matter and simply had too much time on his hands. I'm not sure if that's the case here or not but the truth of the matter is that there's about as much chance of any snake getting a virus, infection, or whatever from casual handling as a cow jumping over the moon and I have no qualms about being completely honest about what I like to do. Catching snakes is fun, the childhood thrill which never leaves. My only wish is that everybody would have the ambition and luck to find a snake they dreamed of catching since boyhood. Let's just see how many hardcore Drymarchon enthusiasts would stand there with their hands in their pockets when they see the first one crossing the road in front of them. Then, some of hypocrisy would disappear, I suspect. My perspective, for what it's worth.

I's wanna troe me too sense in it two!!!
Dem dare bloo gofer snakes is proteked ya'll hear!!!

Careful what you wish for - you might just get it and a lot more (legal headaches).

But anyway, thanks for sharing the pic. . . .

Next issue: Can you take a disease from one snake to a wild snake - well, yeah!!! think about this: A snake mite is a prime vector that CAN survive on your hands/clothes for a looong time and is willing to do so in order to sew his seeds in a new location. So take a snake mite on a long ride and put it on a wild snake a few hours later. Will the mite survive on his new host??? OF COURSE - it's his favorite hangout (a living snake). . .
My 1.5 cents. . .
Not trying to start a war here - I LOVE ALL OF YOU!!!

Peace to all,

Zee

I have no problem with your point of view, but I take exception to your statement "if you have any scientific knowledge"...you will not pick up a wild snake etc., implying that anyone who doesn't agree with you has no idea what they are talking about.

I am not a professional scientist (I'm assuming from your statement that you are?) but I have worked in the field with scores of field biologists, and never once have I heard a single concern about passing pathogens to a wild snake by handling them.
I assume these people have "some scientific knowledge"

I certainly agree that anyone who KEEPS herps at home needs to disinfect their hands before going in the field. I always disinfect after handling my animals.

If you have a reason to believe we can pass pathogens to wild snakes by picking them up, please share. But don't give us, a 'if you don't know this you are stupid' line and then nothing to back it up.

I sure as hell am not going to pick up a wild herp again if I think I'm going to pass pathogens to it that could kill it or (worse) infect a population. But as long as my hands are not infected from other herps...I don't have a reason to think that will happen (?)

np

The point made earlier about disease being spread from collection to collection is valid. But it is also flawed in this thread.

Snakes in a collection are often c/b. Even if they are not, they are living in (I hope) an enviroment that is much more disease free than nature. this would result in less exposure to disease and less built up resistance to it.

This would mean that the captive serpents that are less exposed to disease a contaminent would be more susceptable to it's results when exposed.

A classic example was the ealy Native American tribes that were wiped out by Measles...a disease brought to them from Europe which obviously had far less severe reactions from the imigents who also contracted it.

Nature is dirty. Living close to it weeds out the weak and makes those who survive more tollerant of what they come in contact with.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

With captives that are exposed to exotics.

Many herpers keep native and exotics species.

If a native corn snake that was housed in the same room as Asian, African, and South American herps is released or escapes
is it then possible it is harboring pathogens from the exotics that neither it nor other native animals would have resistance to?

Just like the example you gave, native americans had no resistance to measels...nor would north american snakes have reason to have immunity to pathogens than infect ball pythons or
womas right?

...just a thought...

That's exactly the point I was trying to make. The liklihood of passing a disease from one wild animal to another in the same range is nill. However, if you keep exotics at home, there is a possibility of vectoring diseases to wild animals for which they would have no resistance, if you don't take proper precautions. The chance is small, but it is possible.

My intent was not to say whether it's a realistic fear or not, but only to say that it's possibly one of the reasons that the law states that you can't touch a protected animal in the wild. I don't know that for sure, it was just a thought.

What I do know for sure is that if the catch you picking one up, whether it's on the road, in the bush, in your front yard or whatever, they get serious about it. Overprotection? Maybe. Am I going to take a chance on going to jail to get a picture? Not on your life. I have (many years ago) caught and immediately released two couperi in Florida, (one by the way was a juvenile). That was before I knew that it was illegal even to pick one up in the wild (without the proper research or relocation permits), whether you intended to take it or not. The guy that let me in on that little tidbit was Tommy Yarbrough back in about 1980 or so, then I verified it by asking one of the Florida Game and Fish guys about it. He was pretty emphatic about the fact that you aren't supposed to touch them no matter what the circumstances.

Both of you make valid points, but it really is far far more likely for the snake to come to harm on the road it self. in the balance, the safety of the animal should be the deciding factor. When in doubt, a tree branch could be used to usher it along. No germs fans...and the snake is safe. Not taking action to save it should be the crime.

As to the legal question. It still boils down to the Purpose vs the letter of the law. That you are not allowed to activly save an endangered specie's life is ludicris. I grew up doing wild bird rescue in Florida we had to have a permit to keep them only.

If a law is practiced that defeats the intent of the law, then that law is wrong. Which is my point.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I agree wholeheartedly.

Dean

You have taken my comment/ comments completely the opposite of my intention.

I deal in fact finding every day, my reports are blunt and sometimes left open to interpretation. But I assure you not to criticize, belittle, or to call anyone stupid.

Although some of my views and statements may seem condescending that is not my intention.

The only scientific back round I can fall on is my job as Coroner and my continue education in Forensic Pathology. Human hands are the largest accounting for cross transfers.

I hope this has cleared my name and intention with you.

Dann

In all this scuttle about hand contamination...I have to ask one question. Don't you people wash your hands after handling your own stock????

Kind of kicks that arguement if you do...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I am not a professional scientist or biologist. I am not an expert. Most of us are not either. Are there any microbiologists out there? I had a conversation with a student of microbiology from the local university. Here is what I have concluded.

Yes it is possible to transfer a disease or a disease carrying vector to a wild specimen from picking it up. HOWEVER,... it is highly unlikely. You would stand a better chance of winning the lottery. If you handeled an infected animal just prior, and you did nothing to disinfect yourself, and you went straight out , found an indigo, and picked it up, and handeled it,... yes it could happen. I doubt that any of us would be that careless. Some dummy could, however, and I am sure this was on the minds of the folks who wrote the law. But for one of us to make such a stupid mistake is highly unlikely.

The other thing is that the legislators where probably thinking of the old give an inch, take a mile analogy, so they decided to ban it all together. They probably thought it best to just ban all human contact with indies all together, just to be safe. Hopefully this would lesson the temptation to keep one if it isn't picked up. The other thing is, they don't want to disturb the animals in any way, or cause any un- natural stress. They don't want us to do anything which might disrupt the animals natural behaviours. Just picking it up, probably wouldn't matter, but if some tourist grabs a forked stick and pins the head of the animal, he could injure it or kill it. A researcher in my area has determind that pinning down a snake for whatever reason can have long lasting negative effects on snakes. It can upset them to the point that it disrupts their movements, feeding, and breeding. For this reason, I no longer pin any snakes when I catch them. I don't much care for Steve Irwin, but he is correct in his opion of how to catch a snake.

As for me, if I see an Indigo in trouble out there, anywhere, ever, I will do whatever it takes to save it. If that means putting someone in the hospital, or getting myself arrested, then so be it. I will not allow this silly argument to detour me from doing the right thing. Period.

However, if I see one out an about, and it does not appear to be in danger, I think I will just take pics. Whether or not I will be so tempted to pic it up, remains to be seen. I'd like to say that I would not, but I know that the temptation would be extremely high. If I did pick it up, it would be to make as detailed an observation as possible. If I did,...I sure wouldn't tell anyone.

As for the guy who did, I can't blame him. No harm, no fowl. It's his freedom in geopardy, let it go guys. Later,
Tony.

NP
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Paranoia is alive and well!!! ;>