Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was in a pet shop yesterday looking for a stand and went in to their reptile room. I couldn't believe it. They had a 6 inch Bosc and a Nile and both (separatey) were in a 12" x 12" cage, no basking light, no temp gradiant, laying on white stones, no food, and just a little 6" aquarium bulb. They looked miserable. They also had a medium iguana with NO lights at all, laying on one of those heat rocks. Filthy turtle tanks, etc. I talked to the reptile person and she just looked at me when I told her she had to move the monitors to larger enclosures and change the substrate, lights, etc. I will be reporting them to the humane officer today. I'm sure many of you have similar stories. I hope our humane officer will at least look into my complaint and not dismiss it as it is only about reptiles.
Pam

Good luck with that Pam but it'll probably do no good since i have also done the same thing in the recent past about a tree monitors at a local petshop that was being housed in a freaking bird cage with a light bulb vertically attached to the side of the cage and a cardboard box for a hide. This was an adult blue tree monitor(beautiful animal). I have gone there every week since and complained to the reptile keeper, manager and anyone who would listen and yesterday is was in the same setup with a seventy degree ambient since the store was air conditioned
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Their focus is the fuzzy, cute, perky, pets that adopt out quickly and take so little care. The animal control, humane soc. people know less about taking care of reptiles than the petstore employees, they would probably think you are crazy for calling them. Why should they believe you over a petstore employee. And 99% of petstores are just as bad, could care less, dont want to spend 1 cent they dont have to, and the animals are products to sell as quickly as possible, and spend as little on as possible.
The better way to deal with a petstore like that is avoid the place, dont spend a cent there. These conditions are the same country wide, its why so many ask the questions that they do about monitor care on forums, the local petstore employee told them what makes keeping them cheap and easy, and what they know about caring for them.

yea i was in a pet store (dont no if i can say the name) it was on long island where i live and i went to the reptile room and looked in a cage i saw at least 20 anoles in a 10 gallon taken with a night light on and it was 12. i saw 3 dead ones on a branch so i went up to the guy and said there is 3 dead anoles in the cage so he says show me so i do and he then says no those anr fine they are in great shape. i was llike ok bye. mean while you can see the bones and the skin like melted on the bones.

it is a shame i dont no about how smart i am the feild of reptiles but i do know when animals are bee treated like crap

p.s. i decided to wait like a cuple of more years before i get a bt thanks for evryones help

Its odd how many of you think you know so much more then those poor old dumb petshops. You go and turn them into the law. Hmmmmmmmm.

I suggest that the petshops are no different then the people who buy them. There are good ones, bad ones, and all levels inbetween.

I would think over all, that pet shops exsist like they do, because they are supported that way. Which means they can. I would also have to wonder, what were you doing in there in the first place?

Please, this is not an attack on you, or is it? But why are you attacking the petshop. Why not try to help them, instead of flying off the handle and attacking them. Remember, if it was not for petshops, people would not have support for their pets. Or pets. Are you saying people should not have pets?

If you look at it in a broad sense. Some feel you are as bad as that petshop. In fact, some feel I am as bad. As far as many biologist go, we all should not keep monitors. Then as far as the local people where the monitors live, if they cannot make money off them, they should be killed off. Our government would have stopped the import a long time ago, but its politicially sound to allow it because it adds to both our and the country of origins, economy.

What I always find amusing is, when one of you fine folks go stupid over one(a few)individual monitors being mistreated, when YOU know, that there are around, half a million, monitors being imported every year. How many do you think live out of that number? how many do you think live for a month? I always ask myself, where do they all go? The simple answer is easy, down the toilet or in the garbage.

I know, we have hatched a few thousand monitors, from ackies to kimberlys, to the whole sand monitor complex, and they seem to be everywhere. Everybody has them. A few thousand over ten years, compare to several million over the same period, hmmmmmmmmmmm and your worried about one or two??????? With that in mind, I wonder about you and how smart you are. No offense, but think about it.

You seem to be smart enough, you should know the imediate solution, its about education, those fine folks are in need of some nice soft education. That is until you all wise up and understand they are not the problem.

The problem is you, the people. Unfortunately, if there was a higher value to the monitors, they would be treated different. That indeed is a human(american) problem. If its cheap, then treat it cheap, if its expensive, then treat it so. Just think if niles and savs were $2000 each. Do you think they would be treated the same? Sorry for the rant, its not about you, you just happened to be in the wrong place, just like you and those monitors at the pet shop. Speaking of the wrong place, those poor monitors, if they were from a few miles away, they would have never been collected and would be living(or not) naturally. Please remember, this is only my thoughts, and have nothing to do with you, does it? FR

>>Its odd how many of you think you know so much more then those poor old dumb petshops. You go and turn them into the law. Hmmmmmmmm.
>>
>> I suggest that the petshops are no different then the people who buy them. There are good ones, bad ones, and all levels inbetween.
>>
>> I would think over all, that pet shops exsist like they do, because they are supported that way. Which means they can. I would also have to wonder, what were you doing in there in the first place?
>>
>> Please, this is not an attack on you, or is it? But why are you attacking the petshop. Why not try to help them, instead of flying off the handle and attacking them. Remember, if it was not for petshops, people would not have support for their pets. Or pets. Are you saying people should not have pets?
>>
>> If you look at it in a broad sense. Some feel you are as bad as that petshop. In fact, some feel I am as bad. As far as many biologist go, we all should not keep monitors. Then as far as the local people where the monitors live, if they cannot make money off them, they should be killed off. Our government would have stopped the import a long time ago, but its politicially sound to allow it because it adds to both our and the country of origins, economy.
>>
>> What I always find amusing is, when one of you fine folks go stupid over one(a few)individual monitors being mistreated, when YOU know, that there are around, half a million, monitors being imported every year. How many do you think live out of that number? how many do you think live for a month? I always ask myself, where do they all go? The simple answer is easy, down the toilet or in the garbage.
>>
>> I know, we have hatched a few thousand monitors, from ackies to kimberlys, to the whole sand monitor complex, and they seem to be everywhere. Everybody has them. A few thousand over ten years, compare to several million over the same period, hmmmmmmmmmmm and your worried about one or two??????? With that in mind, I wonder about you and how smart you are. No offense, but think about it.
>>
>> You seem to be smart enough, you should know the imediate solution, its about education, those fine folks are in need of some nice soft education. That is until you all wise up and understand they are not the problem.
>>
>> The problem is you, the people. Unfortunately, if there was a higher value to the monitors, they would be treated different. That indeed is a human(american) problem. If its cheap, then treat it cheap, if its expensive, then treat it so. Just think if niles and savs were $2000 each. Do you think they would be treated the same? Sorry for the rant, its not about you, you just happened to be in the wrong place, just like you and those monitors at the pet shop. Speaking of the wrong place, those poor monitors, if they were from a few miles away, they would have never been collected and would be living(or not) naturally. Please remember, this is only my thoughts, and have nothing to do with you, does it? FR

Hi Frank,

In my case anyway, its really not about the petshop per say but rather the condition of the reptile. I would feel the same way if i came to Goanna Ranch and found a monitor being kept in similar conditions. And yes this is only one or two animals, BUT my question to you is, how can you care about the 100's being imported and dismiss the 1 or 2 that you see in your neighborhood? See the education process has to start somewhere so im the type of person to start on my door step and work outward. When i first saw the tree monitor being kept how it was in my neighborhood petshop i admit i jumped the gun by making a fuss that i later appoligized for. Then decided the smart thing to do was do some research of my own and expand my knowledge and then offer help. I even took them caresheets which may or may not be helpful in your oppinion but i figured for the time being that the monitor would be better off than it was and is. The reason i visit this particular petshop, since you asked "what are we doing their in the first place" is because it is not abad place actually one of the better ones i've visited and just because they are inexperienced with monitors is not reason enough for me(personally) to discontinue doing business with them. For those are their animals and not mine.
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Jaye- " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

Your approach was in line with my fourth paragraph. Try and help them, nicely. Thanks FR

Hi Frank...

If you read my post, I was looking for a stand when I happened upon the reptile room and I quote:

"I was in a pet shop yesterday looking for a stand and went in to their reptile room. (Pam)"

Then you (Frank) said:

"Why not try to help them, instead of flying off the handle and attacking them."

And I said and I quote:

"I talked to the reptile person and she just looked at me when I told her she had to move the monitors to larger enclosures and change the substrate, lights, etc. (Pam)"

I never flew off the handle, I talked to them nicely and pointed out the problems I saw. I realize that you may look at this situation as only one or two, but to quote the Starfish Poem...

"But, young man, don't you realize that

there are miles and miles of beach

and starfish all along it.

You can't possibly make a difference!"

The young man listened politely.

Then bent down, picked up another starfish

and threw it into the sea,

past the breaking waves and said-

"It made a difference for that one."

I probably have not made any difference in the lives of these monitors, but who knows, maybe I have and I may have made a difference for that one. I can't change the world, but at least I made an attempt in my small, albeit ineffective way.

Thanks for the input.

Pam

If so, it's like complaining about organized crime with a crack pipe in your mouth.

If you see an animal not treated properly, never, ever, do business with them again until the situation is rectified.

You could tell them, " I came here to buy a stand, but have decided not to do so until you take better care of your animals, and here is how you do it...."

There are plenty of reputable suppliers of animals and supplies available to us if we are willing to look.

BTW, many people will believe that buying the animal from the pet store to "save" it is the right thing to do. It isn't, because there will be another one in there the next week to take it's place.
If the store looses enough money on the animal, they will stop carrying that type of animal. Most pet stores carry inexpensive monitors to sell supplies (cages, astroturf, stands, lights, etc.), supplies are where the money is at.

In fact, I wouldn't buy anything from them and will be happy to tell others of the deplorable conditions of their animals in the hopes that they may decide not to support them. IMHO, most pet shops should carry pet supplies, period. Most do not have the knowledge to take care of goldfish, let alone anything exotic. Again, these are my opinions, and I am entitled to them. To each their own. I did what I felt was right...was it of any value, probably not. As many have said, education is the key, and that is exactly what I tried to do when I talked to the "reptile" person in that pet shop. It was obvious she was nothing more than a sales person, as she had absolutely no idea what I was talking about. I am by no means an expert in herps, just a beginner in fact, but I do know inadequate care when I see it.

Pam

Whether you like me, hate me, agree with me or not, I have made a difference, all by myself. So can you. You just have to try.

Its all about effort, you said, you talked to the people at the shop. Is that all the effort you an muster up? I imagine if you put as much effort as this thread requires, you could think of a million ways to help.

How about showing them, how a nicer looking cage can benefit sales. Please understand, they do not make money on monitors, but they do make money on hardgoods, like cages, lites, the whole nine yards. Even more money on the food the reptiles consume. Show them that if they would set up the cages as to advertise these goods, then they would be killing two or more birds with one stone. And even end up with a healthy nice looking monitor. Its all about effort. FR

n/p

?

No, Frank, I certainly don't hate you, if fact I find you fascinating, successful, opinionated and hope to meet you in person one day. I understand where everyone is coming from. I did't go into great detail in my original thread, but I did walk through the store, point out better enlosures for the animals, told them about substrate, showed them the basking lights they should be using, showed them hides, talked to them about their crickets...everything I could think of. I offered to fax or e-mail them information about the monitors. She told me they would look at some books, yea, right. It wasn't just the monitors, it was also the iquanas, beardies, skinks, turtles, everything was a mess. And Shvar was right, the humane officer said, "Well, we'll give them a call. Were they dying?" You can see this will go nowhere. Thanks for the input.
Pam

Animals that customers from his competition brought in for help, so he traded fat healthy equivalents and nursed the sick back to health, in the process made alot of new customers. The problem he had was his competition would wait until he had a load of their sick animals from his old customers then call the humane society, Fish and Boat commission etc etc and report him for having sick dieing animals all over the shop. They showed up looked around, and saw nothing wrong then told him who called them (every week for so long). The animal control people told him his animals he was nursing back to health looked better than his competitors animals for sale, the one that called them. Those organizations are so used to visiting petstores that keep animals that way that they themselves dont know anything is wrong, or for that matter what animal species are in front of them when they do visit, most carry Petersons field guides.

I used that poem last year when Illustating a similar point. Seriously though, I dont believe that being "nice" is the way to go. Ive tried a few different approaches, and the only one that has been effective for me was the aggressive approach of contacting animal control(and making sure they show) whevever the store has unacceptable conditions. One of the local store that I kept on having problems with ended up not carrying reptiles anymore after my multiple reports. The process takes alot of time, and is downright frustrating, but you CAN make them stop. It is possible, just keep in mind, you wont make many friends along the way, and chances are you will get alot of grief after they start recognising you when you walk through the door.

Take care though, and do what you think is right.

All the best,
Michelle

that is horrible! i can not believe a pet shop would do that do those poor creatures.
i hope something is done about it ASAP.
i have three savanna monitors they are just loveable creatures i can not see how anyone cold do something so dare i say it " cold hearted"
that really pisses me off let me know the outcome
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~Jaa Mata~

You litterally have to MAKE SURE they come. Thats the only way to do it. Have your cell phone in hand and keep calling until they show.

in 3rd world contries... heres some picks from the philippines...

not just herps

...

as if

?

??

It sure did not look like the ones we have seen. The second and third are butaan, but the first had no bands and no grey. I guess its a pattern that is not shown here often.

From that pattern(the first individual) It sure shows a relationship to mangroves. Cheers FR

Just a different angle.

Only the second pic, has a nice reflection off the back glass, where I can see the pattern. The first pic, had no evidence of banding. Thanks FR

What the heck ARE they then?? HHmmmmm....
http://gallery.pethobbyist.com/index.pl?photo=148566

Good work Matt Yuyek!!!- Head Animal Curator, Avilon Zoo Philippines

hi frank,
those butaan that are in the petmarket usually comes from catanduanes and bicol region... and yes it has the bands that confuses you... i saw some butaans in the market before that are spectacled and some with light bands and i talked to the guy that supplies the petshop and told me it was from the same province(bicol)...
here's a pic of my butaan.... i'll post new pics next time...
cheers! and happy herping!
Neil

cages I see them displayed in at reptile shows.

Was that animal for sale at the market? or is that it's cage?
Doesn't look like they were hard to find over there.

That was at the market in Manila. They go for P3000- P6500 / approx. $60.- $130. Its fairly common to see them in the market. They usually die off quickly in captivity, so the buyers keep coming back for replacements. Thes animals dont come from Polillo, but usually Bikol(sp).

This is how I prefere to catch animals...

He came to "visit" me everyday for the whole week I was in the hide. -He was actually just eating ants off my tent, but nonetheless, it was company that was very much appreciated on my part! That kind of solitude can drive a person mad! Hahahaha! Mad I tell you!!! And people wonder why field researchers are kinda quirky! Hahaha!

So your not keeping any animals anymore yourself? Just wondering since you said that about catching animals.

Are you still looking into importing your monitor to the U.S.? Did you buy him off the market or catch him?

Hahahahaha. It would be nice if I could have a Bengal Monitor. Hell have to live in Manila and Ill visit him yearly. Hahahaha. He sure is a cutey though dont you think? He was cbb at the zoo in the Philippines. Damn cute!

Yes, I actually did buy an Olivaceus off the market! He is now living happily with a nice female in the Philippines where hopefully they will be producing many many offspring, on a diet that DOESNT consist of meat, but rather their NATURAL diet of fruit. I wouldnt DREAM of taking one of these magnificent animals out of thier native country!!! I dont care what anyone says about them being able to adjust to rodent diets and the like. Thats bull. No one has offered a natural diet (in the past), and no one has had any real breeding success...

you havent seen the worst yet...would you imagine a 3ft water monitor in a fishnet? go here in the philippines and see for yourself...i frequently see those scenario over and over again... i tried telling them bout that matter before, but no changes. Honestly, the situation is far different from those shops there in the states... the have the money and fascilities for the animals... but here, hmmmmmmmmmmm..... but yet, i'm not in the position to call the animal control office, secondly, i cant blame the guys selling those animals, because it's the only thing they know to earn money to feed their families... it's hard to earn money here, thats one reason why crime rate is very high here... but it's just the scenario here, i dunno in the states, but still you are all very lucky to be living in a place where people pay attention for the wellbeing of animals....

happy herping!
Neil

I feel really lucky to have found a good petshop after hearing some about some of the bad ones. The animals all look really healthy and the whole place is clean. They have a lot of baby beardies in at the moment and they all run to the front of the enclosures to watch you walk past. Their speciality is corn snakes and they breed them all themselves. I think the owner might have even come up with a couple of new morphs but I'm not sure on that. They also carry a lot of books and magazines on exotic pets. They don't often have monitors but they had some ackies in last week that looked healthy. Healthy enough to be mating at least, which was what they were doing. There is another exotic petshop not far away that is dirtier and the animals are not as active. It is cheaper for crickets and other supplies but I haven't been since I found the good one.