Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just a note before I actually get into this: I do not intend to try this nor have I ever; I just have a curiosity in this subject.

Hi,
I have heard of people injecting themselves with snake venom to produce antibodies. I know in India they have done it for centuries, and still do. What they do is put Russell's Viper venom in tattoo ink, get tattoos, and then they get antibodies over time.
I have heard of many people doing this in the west, but the one that sticks out the most for me is a man in his nineties. I can't remember his name, but he is called like the "snake guru" or something and he lives in his serpetarium(sp) in Florida. He has been injecting himself with venom for decades and he has been flown all over the world to give blood transfusions to snake bite victims.
I have always thought about doing this, but I don't think I would ever go through with it. I just wanted to see if anyone knew any medical information on this subject. I am curious to know what effect the venom and venom antibodies have on the body. I doubt there would be any information like this on humans, but maybe there have been papers published on the antivenom-producing horses. I know people can have allergic reactions to antivenom, so could people have allergic reactions to human antibodies through fluid transfer or blood donation?
Thank you for all your help. Any information would be greatly appreciated. Josh

The man whose name you are trying to recall is Bill Haast. He sold his serpentarium in Miami several years ago & moved to Punta Gorda to set up a similar establishment that is not open to the public.

I know of a few other people who inject themselves with snake venom for the purpose of maintaining an immunity to the venom's effects. One regular poster on this forum does this, & I'd be surprised if he did not respond to your question.

~~Greg~~

yes many people self immunise.
It works and has been done for thousands of years.
There is one big problem aside from a few reactions.
There are nay sayers that boast of how much they think they know when they have never even tried it once.
To them I say get your facts straight.
This costs lives and keeps setting us back instead of progressing.
Even with a small amount of antibodies the same bite would come out better than with out them.
But even with many satisfied immunisers the nay sayers
will still coo and squeek voodoo science while they nearly die and loose their fingers hahahahaha not too smart if you ask me. yet they are promoted as experts with no real experiance with the matter other than a snake farm.
Who are you listen to?
Succesfull immunisers or unsuccesfull test bite dummies?
I rest my case.
Have fun but ever close your mind as some have.

-----
Bud

Self immunization has been done by people. There has never been any scientific studies on the humans system as to the effectiveness of this...or the side effects. there are very strong opinions to this subject on both sides of the fence... some for and some against. I have never done it, nor would I ever. the benefits of limited resistance ( if that in fact is achieved) do not outweigh the medical side effects. In my opinion it is far better and easier to have good safety measures in place to not be bitten, and if you do get bitten, to have a good protocol and a source of antivenom.
Oh and real quick, Mr. Haast has never actually provided blood to save a snakebite victim. At one time he was flown to a victim, but never actually used. Now a days, that would be highly illegal and unethical to do so.
Best regards,
Terry
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

I could be mistaken, but I am pretty certain I recall Bill Haast's blood being used to treat successfully at least one coral snakebite victim. It wasn't recently, but I'm pretty sure it did happen. I grew up in south Florida at the time he had the serpentarium. He was in the news occasionally..mostly for being bitten, but not always. Aha! I just pulled "Cobras in His Garden" off the shelf. The first time his blood was used to treat a coral snake victim was in 1954. There were several more up through at least 1965.

~~Greg~~

np
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

Josh,

If you pick up COBRAS IN HIS GARDEN (the bio of Bill Haast) and go to chapter nine, there is a detailed account of John B. Lewis who was bitten in 1965 by a coral snake. He was treated with Bill's blood.

Bill also gave blood to Atilla Beck in 1954 (also for coral snake).

Mary Rayborn (1965)also recieved his blood after sticking herself with a needle containing coral snake venom. In this case it was concluded that the amount of venom injected by Mary was too minimal to have any serious effects.

The bio only runs to 1965. There have been more since then, but the point is made as these are the most easily documented.

As to it being illegal...since when? I can recall just a few years ago when he went to North Florida (on another coral bite).

Unethical? Since when is saving someone's life unethical. It is no differnt really than any anti-venom treatment. maybe in S. Dakota where you are it might be a problem but not here.

Terry it looks like once again you are talking about something you don't know. Try researching before you speak with "authority".

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

The victims were all placed on iron lungs to keep them breathing.
Was it Haast's blood or the iron lung that saved them. No doctor would us human blood to treat a victim now days. Just check with the FDA on rules for human blood usage and transportation.
The risks out weigh the benefits ask any real venom researchers.
Self injection has no effect on tissue loss.

Science has advanced since the 1950's and 60's so we are able to test venom not only for toxins but other substances. Some of these have serious effects on the body.

This agruement will never end because it is fired by emotions and name calling. I ask for peer reveiwed proof and I get called names. I have peer reviewed proof that it is not save to inject raw venom into your body.

I have state many times if you want to change my opinion give me peer reviewed proof. Not a note in a journal that is not subject to peer review.

Jim Harrison

...as to your problem with it...I don't recall calling you names or any such. A question was posted. NOTE I did not say the blood was used successfully as there is question as to it's value. But the question posted by Josh did not ask that.

As to treatment with Haasts blood. To my knowledge he is still available for such treatments and has been called for such. Please indicate what FDA ruling applies to Haast (website please).

As to the so called journal...feel free to pick up any Internet records you can on it because again....I only confirmed that the treatment had been used...which you confirm as well.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Ok...Jim, who in this thread made a a comment about tissue loss?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Frank,
I am always happy to know when I am wrong. I have to admit it has been a number of years since I read the book. Frank, I appreciate seeing your return to your typical behavior of happily and aggressively pointing out who is right and who is wrong. You would think though, that a gentleman your age would have learned how to be little more polite to people. Oh well, as far as being illegal and unethical, Check with the FDA Frank about usage of human blood. As far as the unethical part, why would a doctor use human blood and all the possibilites of disease transmission, blood type differences etc when AV is readily available with so few drawbacks to it's use, the drawbacks that are there are readily treated.... as far as the tissue loss, being "immune" to venom would also mean you had no tissue loss.... which is part of the original post, so relax. You really don't have to pick fights with everyone here.
So to reanswer Josh's original question. Yes, people do it and Yes there are some very hotheaded people that will argue all day about it!
Terry
-----
It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

I guess you just bring out the best in me Terry. Though how you have become a judge of what is gentlemanly strains my credibility.

Our past encounters have amply displayed cause for my doubt.

Your assumption that being immune to venom would also imply that there was no tissue loss might well be true...But that is an assumption (by you) made upon a statement that did not specify that. So (not being pschic or gifted with that marvelous degree of insight)I answered Jim's statement as it related just what had been presented in print.

But then you are so fond of answering responses directed at other people.

Oh, and congradulations...I did not know you had been promoted to curator.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

First when talking about self injecting people need to know that it does nothing for tissue damage. Bud made comments on my three fingers etc. There has not been a doctor in the last 20 years that would use Haast blood for antiserum and if they did the FDA would like to know about it. You can call the FDA and talk to the person in charge of drugs/antiserum and blood usage.

I was just trying to guide young kids away from this voodoo science . No true reseachers self inject except Haast who like myself is a venom provider. Again the risks out weigh the benefits. I don't care what adults do to themselves but kids read this stuff.

Self injecting has been researched to death and is not safe to do without a doctor which most doctors would like to keep their medical practices so would not break FDA rules on drug testing.

Jim Harrison

This sounds more like you have a problem with BUD. Seems you two have some kind of situation that has nothing to do with Josh's question.

This thread was about someones curiosity. Something I think is right to answer.

As to the FDA statement. You are dodging the point. What FDA regulation has Haast been violating for the last twenty years since his services have been repeatedly requested by the state of Florida and he has served?

Are you even in Florida...or are you another out of state expert on my home state?

I have met and spoke with Haast a few times and my wife corresponds with his. A most reasonable man. Perhaps you should take the issue up with him.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Hi Josh, my work with SI was published in the Annals of Allergy, Asthma and Immunology in Jan 04. My doctors also represented me at the ACAAI conference in 03, at which time 30 other doctors talked about what I do. I'm very immune to the mambas with regards to my gamma titer level(5.0/black mamba, 5.9 green mamba), but that's b/c I can take pure venom boosters with the mamba complex(lack of cytotoxic protein fractions). The cobras are different b/c of the strong cytotoxic fractions, and pure venom will blow my muscle cells away. I have over 25 scars from cobra experiments. I also developed an IgE prtein to the venom, so my blood can't be used, and that sucks. IgE shock is very wicked and I've passed out 6 times with the mambas at first. But now the gamma overrides the E and I never got it again. There's still a long road ahead, and only more experimentation, and liver and kidneys assays will prove the power of the vaccine. Thanks Josh. Tim Friede

Ok guys this is getting old already.
There is asome debate over tissue loss with or without antibodies.

sorry jim about the remarks about your amount of tissue damage.
but its a good point to make.
Even when a big atrox got me in a finger joint I had very minimal tissue loss and barely even scar it was a bad envenomation.
The whole thing boils down to what type snakes you get bit by.
and yes there is tissue loss even with my high level of immunities.
so if you stay with snakes that kill but don't destroy tissue
SI is a good choice over antivenom in my opinion.
Living is the point. tissue loss is a secondary concern.
so the benefits out weigh the side effects that you talk about of which I have none!
I will keep on living bite after bite and you all will keep dying thats a good deal for me what about you is death good?

you all show your intelligence to me by speaking without any real data old peer reviews don't cut it here.
Tim has put it to paper and you all will see soon.
and any milker that does not immunise is careless and has a death wish.
have fun

-----
Bud

My thought about the self-immunisation is quite simply: does the benefit override the side effects? What is the relative level? To self-immunise against Crotalus atrox would be pointless since a good antivenom exists for it. However, for some snakes there does not exist any antivenom and as we do more research we are realising just how poorly neutralised some of these snakes are. In this case, it comes down to relative exposure. A normal keeper would not have to milk the snake so can work with it quite safely at a distance. Someone milking/researching the snakes obviously is at quite a bit more risk of envenomation. As to whether self-immunisaiton should be used by that particular person would be something between them and their doctor.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

hello bryan
The average person that keeps a few snakes would not need to immunise.
Yes atrox is covered with cro-fab at 900.00 per twin pack.
Its much cheaper to bypass the sheep and all the tecnology
it takes to produce it.
lets see 900.00 x 10 = $9000 for 20 vials not counting installation and hospital stay.
its a no brainer if you ask me.
Immunisation cost = minimal to none

atrox is also a high threat species thats why I included it.
many bad bites.
low threat species need no immunisation.
The perfect species for Si are the mambas.
A big green is no threat if you immunise.
And the outcome if a big black gets you will be much better than if you were non immunised.
I may be the freak of nature but it sure works for me with out any side effects and is quite fun getting to test out many
species to see if it works or not with them.
my reason is simple if I take the responsibility to own these snakes I must do all I can to make it easy on the public.
no bad press no big doc bills and such.
I am a old freehandler I always have been, being bit is part of the game.
SI has saved me from the deadly effects of venoms and I would not trade it for a cooler full of AV!
I have all fingers and don't understand why milkers donT
even try this when they have scared and destroyed fingers.
Av is slow to act atibodies are there ready to find and bind.

open the blinds of ignorance let the light shine in.
there will be a time soon when a simple yearly innoculation will give protection against these snakes.

till then good luck keep the fangs checked
good day.
-----
Bud

Cost is not a valid reason to risk the health by self-immunising.

Also, there is no way a yearly vaccine could be developed. This is simply due to the nuances of the immune system and the type of immunity needed to develop and maintain enough circulating antibodies. The shots would need to be done on a precise schedule for maximum efficiency and also using very very accurate weights of the venom itself and all under the strict observation of a physician.

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

That's exactly what I do. One year wouldn't work, about 3 months is the very max, but every 17-30 days is the best. Which is one reason that it would be tough to use in the field for people. If it was a one timer, or a yearly flu, it would work very nicely. Another major hurdle is making the protein safe for injection, a toxoid if you will(ie, dip, or tet vaccines). These are the big problems, but ones that in time might be solved. I also think that the immune system can be looked into b/c of SI. Isn't it great that I can be allergic w/ E, but my gamma overrides it. Now nothing happens at all, b/c I fought through it. There are doctors Bryan that really think that's important stuff. One that even posts here. Jimmy says hi.

One aspect that is grossly underinvestigated is not immunisation for protective antibodies but rather immunotherapy to counter life-threatening IgE-mediated anaphylaxis. This is based off of the same methodologies utilised for bee venom immunotherapy, fire ants etc. Venom researchers and milkers at at high risk of developing this sort of allergy; one that can kill much quicker than any envenomation. In this case, the venom injections are of tiny amounts. Very very small. Just enough to start ticking over the IgG production and thus suppress the IgE. However, there is a very very high chance of anaphylactic shock resulting from the immunotherapy, particularly at the inception. Thus, it should only be done by a physician experienced in this area and in a hospital with a crash cart etc. standing by and the patient already hooked up to IVs etc.

All the best
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I was woundering how to go about starting SI. I work with cotton mouths, diamond backs, canebrakes, and timber rattlers in the wild. I have read a lot of the posts hereon the subject and would like to start SI on myself but i need to know how.
Please e-mail me with responces
reptle2@cmaacess.com

sorry everyone the correct e-mail is
REPTLE2@CMAACCESS.COM

THANK YOU

Just b/c there's AV for certain spp, doesn't mean I'll survive, or save my arm, or spend money on AV, or hospital bills! Why would I go that route? Now, if my liver and kidneys fall out, I'll be wrong and let ya know. Until then, it works amazingly well. Have a good day B. TF

not for bgf or frank or tf but for the others

It seems to me that the measure of a person's ignorance is how they closed they keep their eyes. How much they refuse to see, and how loud they can get proclaiming they're right by their own hypcritic standards...
I have spent 30 years on this and have found that unless you try to reach a goal you will never get to it.
nothing is easy you have to work at it .
Its easy to go along with the crowd and accept deception.
count the fingers and ask your self is this acceptable?

-----
Bud

Hi mate,

My point is that there are defineable risks with the self immunisation and that these need to be weighed against whether or not it is actually needed. Mambas are the perfect example of an entire genus for which SI is not necessary. Patients can be kept alive on artificial respiration if needed and the antivenom works very efficiently in neutralising mamba venom. No need to count the fingers since they were never at threat to begin with.

If people are to SI, it needs to be done in a professional manner so as to not make the entire hobby look like a freak show. The average person would think its all a bit mental.

All the best,
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Disagree 200%, b/c getting to AR takes time. Time you don't have w/ the mambas. Plus, why get in that position if you don't have too? Let's just agree to disagree. Peace. TF

>>Disagree 200%, b/c getting to AR takes time.

This comes down to envenomation protocol rather than the availability of antivenom. This should be the sole consideration in regards to self-immunisation, any other reason is not a good enough justification.

>Time you don't have w/ the mambas.

Actually, with a properly applied pressure-immobilisation bandage you should have plenty of time. However, without competent first aid the available time certainly gets much shorter.

> Plus, why get in that position if you don't have too?

The key here is that self-immunisation is not risk free and therefore there should be an overriding reason to do it (ie milking a colletion of 100 Echis for which there are no antivenom; this would certainly be a situation where self-immunisation might be worth giving a very close look).

Cheers
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

All points taken! Stay safe

The black mamba bite last year on a big 300 lb guy.
He got to the hospital in ten min.
he used shirts instead of ace bandages.
he went down hill rapidly.
was put on AR given plenty of av.
he was in a comas for weeks and still to this day is disabled.
using a walker even with the treatment and av he is a total crip.
It comes down to this you may live if you get to a hospital for treatment or you may still die even with av and AR.
I don't want to wonder about it
Si works so well for mambas I have no need to worry about Treatments going wrong.
I don't want anyone to blindly go into this but if they
want to have a venomoid or do SI it's their choice
since its perfectly legal who am I to say.
If it looks or sounds freaky that is also a opinion.
most think we are weird for keeping these snakes anyway.

Thanks for your time bryan.

-----
Bud

Hi mate

>> he used shirts instead of ace bandages.

Thats the key statement here, incorrect first aid. Had he used a properly applied pressure-immobilisation bandage the outcome may have been rather different.

All the best
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

Bryan I value your opinons.
He tied the shirts tight as and they worked till he was at the hospital in TEN min.
Then they were removed for treatment,then he went down hill.
I don't think that was the only reason he had such a bad time of it.
This proves there is still a great chance of injury with antivenom treatment and getting to the hospital very quickly.
In fact Av at the hospital is risky as anything else.
all said I still like getting bit and going out to eat or see the movies with no fear of bad treatment or death.
The risk I find is with the treatment you would receive at a place of healing.
Just my opinion after living it for 30 years.
have a good one.
-----
Bud

Hi mate

>> He tied the shirts tight as and they worked till he was at the hospital in TEN min.
>> Then they were removed for treatment,then he went down hill.

That certainly didn't help. In Australia the pressure bandages are left on until an IV is in place and antivenom is available. This is because once the PI bandages are removed, the symptoms can show up with great rapidity.

>> I don't think that was the only reason he had such a bad time of it.
>> This proves there is still a great chance of injury with antivenom treatment and getting to the hospital very quickly.

Very true indeed. However, its usually through the lack of competent medical care (envenomation treatment in the states appears to be in a shocking state still, with exceptions such as Dr. Sean Bush shining through of course).

All the best
Bryan
-----
Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

National geographic did a documentary on some Canadian boys who did the SI thing with mamba's and the such. By reading this forum it seems as it is more common than I thought.

Now before you attack me for not being a professional or having all the facts I will admit that I am not. I am however a clear, open-minded person able to view both viewpoints.

Does SI work? Yes, by taking the word of the people in this forum and my previous knowledge on the subject.

Is their risks? Of course, when is there not risks when working with hots. The approximate risk in my opinion is managing the chances of an anaphylactic reaction to the procedure (assuming it is done correctly and you havn't overdosed yourself)

Is it essential? No, but my opinion. I do take offence to the notion that being bitten is just part of hobby. My mentor has operated a reptile zoo for over 20 years and hasn't one bite, nor any scaring on his hands.

Is this for Joe public, or even Joe Hot Keeper? My opinion is no. But it is a personal choice. The process of SI sounds like it sucks terribly and is only a slight second to being bit. With modern medicine why not save your body the torture for an actual emergency. Being a hot keeper is also the responsibility of first making sure AV and an ER are in your area and readily available of course.

A valid point: As the responses in this forum deem an experimental intrigue to SI and the actual procedures are not recognized by any national medical body (to my knowledge), it is a personal decision to play guinea pig (it may just be fun, I might have to try it . An issue that will most likely arise if this becomes common practice is the increased #'s of SI will see more deaths than originally caused by bites just by the sheer numbers of people keeping Hots vs the current number of bites. All in all more people with venom in there bodies, which is not where it belongs.

Just my view point, take it with a grain of salt please,