Reptile & Amphibian Forums

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Jason
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1.1 Beardies (Rip and Ryu)
1.0 Ball Python (Kanye)

Is inbreeding EVER ok? No it's not!

If you are planning on breeding beardies please do a lot of research.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>Is inbreeding EVER ok? No it's not!

Just to play devil's advocate... yes, sometimes it is. :}

My main area of research is horses, Arabian horses in particular, & they *can* be inbred very successfully (though we like to call it "linebreeding" ;} ). Inbreeding can actually be a very useful tool in fixing particular desirable characteristics in a bloodline (fewer outcrosses mean fewer sets of genes with which to gamble in each generation). The problem is that undesirable traits are *at least* as magnified with inbreeding as desirable ones are... The danger, therefore, isn't necessarily inbreeding so much as not culling as often as is necessary (and by "culling" I don't mean anything as drastic as killing less-desirable animals, just not breeding any animal that exhibits *anything* that you wouldn't be pleased with in the next generation. Yes, there's always the chance that that undesirable trait won't be passed on, but the more inbred the animal is, the more likely that it will). Another danger, of course, is when people either breed for one or two traits regardless of others (like, say, breeding for colour in beardies w/o any regard for health, personality, conformation, etc), or breeding for traits that are fashionable but ultimately detrimental to the health of the animal (like completely flat croups in the aforementioned Arabian horses, or flat faces in Persian cats, etc). Again, the more inbred the animal is, the more likely it is to throw these traits... and once you breed for something long enough, the genes you weren't breeding for will be lost forever, sometimes before you even realize that the lost gene really *was* desirable. Genetic diversity is nothing to be sneezed at.

Please take my argument as a purely academic one, though, not as someone saying that it's hunky-dorey to breed closely-related bearded dragons. Lizards are not horses, & it's very possible that the captive-bred beardie genepool is so limited that any sort of breeding between closely-related individuals is going to unearth more negative traits than positive. In any breeding program, too, it takes many generations of linebreeding to be able to predictably "fix" desirable traits while avoiding most of the undesirable ones. Breeding unrelated individuals will almost always give you the best results for the first couple of generations ("hybrid vigor" isn't just an esoteric phrase in biology texts ;} ). To be fair, too, some of the *really* undesirable traits in Arabians (like the congenital disease SCID), can be detected in the laboratory, so it's easy to either breed a heterozygous individual to one that doesn't carry the gene at all (resulting in nothing worse than another unaffected carrier), or just not breed that individual to anyone... AFAIK, no such tests exist for beardies, so breeding unrelated individuals is the best way to avoid detrimental or fatal genetic disorders,

Sorry to ramble so... and like I said... just playing devil's advocate. I am *not* a beardie breeder, nor do I play one on the internet. :}
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~Alice

1.0 Bearded Dragon (Oolong)
0.1 ferret (Lil' Guy)
7.4 cats (Angel, Goblin, Hush, Kirin, Sammy, Squee, Toes, Feets, Gypsy, Kana, Raisen)

The main problem with inbreeding bearded dragons at this current time is there is no where near the gene diversity as their is with other species... i.e. arabian horses, persian cats, or even snakes. Inbreeding in snakes is done all the time to acheieve certain goals, but the key there is the gene diversity to start with and then of course the out-crossing back to fresh genes. With snakes, wild caught and "fresh blood" is always being imported and introduced into collections.. thus helping keep it "clean."

Bearded dragons in the USA right now are becoming weaker and weaker every generation due to many factors. They are in a sense, already being "in-bred" to a degree. There are far too many "breeders" out there that just buy dragons and breed them for fun or whatever and then resell their babies not knowing what they've done.

For example, and I'll use our name so not to bring other breeders into this. Someone buys a pair of red/orange dragons from us. They raise them up and breed them. Another person buys a pair from us.. raises them up and breeds them. Both people inbreed their set of dragons and resell them... then someone buys one dragon each from both people and breeds those two dragons together.. they think hey i bought a dragon from two different people they aren't related.. when in fact they are and thus in only two generations they have been inbred twice. And that's just the start. Obviously using Dragons by Nature is a poor example, we aren't big enough.. but that theory is sound with the larger breeders out there bc they sell to hundreds and hundreds of people every season.

I can appreciate your post and agree in part with some, but I don't think it applies at all to dragons.. and that's why I replied to this post. Not because I'm trying to be argumentative with you, but for "newbies" that read these posts and don't understand the whole picture. (not that i'm an expert)

Inbreeding is done all the time with bearded dragons, and was very popular to establish the new genes and morphs we have today. I think the key to understanding that though is back when a lot of these morphs were created by inbreeding, the gene pool was a lot fresher then it was today. Breeders who know what they are doing can and have success inbreeding dragons bc they know how to outcross to make it work.

This is just my opinon, i'm not an expert. I'm fairly inteligent with reptiles and have bred many different species.. but i've never seen such a high death rate (both of breeders & offspring), small/weak offspring, and diseases that pop up as I do with bearded dragons from all of the posts I read online.

Common sense (as well as data to back that up) tends to show the common factor with bearded dragons is weak genes to start, and no gene diversity. it's a shame... dragons are just about the coolest possible interactive lizard out there.

Again, this post was not directed towards you or meant to start an argument.. i hate those posts. It was geared towards newbies that might read this or if nothing else another view point on this subject.

brandon
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Dragons by Nature

Well, like I said, my post was mostly made to argue the point that inbreeding *can* be a good thing, in some situations, with some animals. I never meant to say that inbreeding beardies would be a good idea. If anybody got that impression from my post, I apologize. :}

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~Alice

1.0 Bearded Dragon (Oolong)
0.1 ferret (Lil' Guy)
7.4 cats (Angel, Goblin, Hush, Kirin, Sammy, Squee, Toes, Feets, Gypsy, Kana, Raisen)

I get what you are saying, but aren't inbreeding and linebreeding somewhat different? I was under the impression that linebreeding was breeding related animals that were a few generations removed, and inbreeding was breeding closely related animals such as brother and sister or father and daughter. Linebreeding is more acceptable in the horse and dog breeding business, when done responsibly, but I didn't think inbreeding was ever acceptable. My sister has bred dogs so I'm a little familiar with it.

I'm also a little bitter because I had a german shepard which I bought from one of the most highly recommended breeders in Dallas back in the day. I was only 17 at the time so I didn't know to look into the dog's history, I just figured this breeder was so popular I couldn't go wrong. By the time my dog was 5 she started displaying every bad genetic trait a german shepard is known to get. I started looking into it and talking to other people who bought dogs from her and I learned that my dog had been inbred. She died by the time she was 6. So yeah I'm a little bitter when it comes to inbreeding. Sensitive subject. But I digress....

As with beardies, yeah the captive gene pool is very limited, and importing new wildcaught beardies from Austrailia is no longer legal, so we have to keep it as varied as possible and even linebreeding is pushing it.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

>>I get what you are saying, but aren't inbreeding and linebreeding somewhat different?

From a purely scientific standpoint, no, not really. From a breeders' standpoint, it depends upon whom you ask. ;} Going back to the horse example, it differs from breed to breed... what Arabian breeders call "linebreeding", f'rinstance, tends to be thought of as "inbreeding" by Thoroughbred or Quarter Horse breeders, whereas what the TB & QH people call "linebreeding" barely registers as "somewhat related" to Arab people. A good example of Arabian linebreeding: Raffles is arguably one of the most influential Arabian sires in North America, & was the result of a father/daughter breeding (Skowronek X Rifala by Skowronek). There have been several well-known & well-respected breeding programs that focused primarily on linebreeding Raffles. Alice Payne is probably the most well known: "Celeste, was a *Raffles daughter out of a *Raffles daughter who herself was by *Raffles, making Celeste 87 1/2% *Raffles. By the time of Payne's death in 1969 her younger horses carried as many as 11 lines to *Raffles in the first six generations of their pedigrees." The horses that have bred on from the Payne breeding program are very well known for both their typiness & athleticism... so, clearly, if you pick your bloodlines well & cull where necessary, inbreeding *can* work for you. :}

>>I'm also a little bitter because I had a german shepard which I bought from one of the most highly recommended breeders in Dallas back in the day. I was only 17 at the time so I didn't know to look into the dog's history, I just figured this breeder was so popular I couldn't go wrong. By the time my dog was 5 she started displaying every bad genetic trait a german shepard is known to get. I started looking into it and talking to other people who bought dogs from her and I learned that my dog had been inbred. She died by the time she was 6. So yeah I'm a little bitter when it comes to inbreeding. Sensitive subject.

I'm sorry to hear about your dog. It's horrible to lose any pet that young. However, that's not necessarily a good example of how inbreeding is bad, per se, so much as how religiously a breeder should cull their breeding population if they *are* going to practice inbreeding.

>>As with beardies, yeah the captive gene pool is very limited, and importing new wildcaught beardies from Austrailia is no longer legal, so we have to keep it as varied as possible and even linebreeding is pushing it.

Absolutely. Again, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was advocating in/linebreeding in bearded dragons. Like I said, I was only trying to play devils advocate against your statement that inbreeding was *never* okay.

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~Alice

1.0 Bearded Dragon (Oolong)
0.1 ferret (Lil' Guy)
7.4 cats (Angel, Goblin, Hush, Kirin, Sammy, Squee, Toes, Feets, Gypsy, Kana, Raisen)

NO!!!!!!
Never, not at any time or for any reason. Genetic quality of Beardies in this country is messed up enough. They are not like snakes or tegus.

I will not even breed cousins. They should be as geneticaly diverse as possible. My advice is do not buy a pair from the same breeder unless you specify that you are going to breed them and the breeder you buy from is trustworty enough to provide you with 2 bloodlines.

and again the answer is NO NO NO NO !!!!
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Bennett

www.beardiedragon.com

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>>Jason
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>>1.1 Beardies (Rip and Ryu)
>>1.0 Ball Python (Kanye)
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

im not the person too tell you whether it is ok or not that is your decision to make. but i will tell you that inbreeding causes alot of problems and offspring of inbred bearded dragons will be weaker and are more prone to birth defects. in my opinion inbreeding bearded dragons is wrong and not very smart.
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sincerely,
jonathan
JDDK Reptiles www.jddkreptiles.com