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So I already know I have a thing for large, black snakes, so I bought a pair of female black rats for my adult male. Thing I realised it, from Burbrink's criteria my females appear to be the eastern ratsnake (alleghaniensis) and my male appears to be the western ratsnake (obsoletus). This is only from blotch characteristics, i.e. number, width, length, etc, since it's pretty easy to count on young snakes, and won't change over time the way some of the other traits from Burbrink will.

My question is: Do you think there's any point in trying to match them up with their own species? I have no locality data for any of them, and they're likely all hybrids from captive breeding anyway. As long as I tell people that these solid black snakes are likely integrades, is there any problem? I realise a lot of people must have black rats that are simply that, black ratsnakes that are some combination of the three newly classified species.

'Cause man, my new females are nice. Darkening up very quickly at a young age, and eating like there's no tomorrow. Plus, one's het for both strains of amelanism, and the other is definately het for one and possibly the other.

Alex

you are honest with people with the snakes you have and are producing. Not everyone has accepted Burbrink's classification. You mentioned not having locality data on the male so getting two females with locality still leaves a gap on any offspring they produce from breeding to your male. I don't feel the black ratsnakes should be put in a subspecies classification. Black ratsnakes have a large gene flowing range and I would consider your males and females to be different locales of the same species. It wouldn't bother me if you told me what you did on this post and were upfront. If I want a black, black ratsnake and your trio produced something I liked, I would not hesitate to pick some up from you. It's great to note the differences i that you described, but I wouldn't necessarily consider them a subspecies and say they are all integrades. Like you mentioned yourself, almost all guttata could be considered integrades. There's differences in snakes that are in areas that have good gene flow. There are differences because there was adaptability, not because there wasn't any gene flow. I've been saying and thinking some of the black ratsnakes have gray ratsnake influence, but recently have been thinking that some of these are actually gray ratsnakes with black ratsnake influence. I don't see any problem with going through with your current plans for the trio as you put it on your post. Good luck

>>So I already know I have a thing for large, black snakes, so I bought a pair of female black rats for my adult male. Thing I realised it, from Burbrink's criteria my females appear to be the eastern ratsnake (alleghaniensis) and my male appears to be the western ratsnake (obsoletus). This is only from blotch characteristics, i.e. number, width, length, etc, since it's pretty easy to count on young snakes, and won't change over time the way some of the other traits from Burbrink will.
>>
>>My question is: Do you think there's any point in trying to match them up with their own species? I have no locality data for any of them, and they're likely all hybrids from captive breeding anyway. As long as I tell people that these solid black snakes are likely integrades, is there any problem? I realise a lot of people must have black rats that are simply that, black ratsnakes that are some combination of the three newly classified species.
>>
>>'Cause man, my new females are nice. Darkening up very quickly at a young age, and eating like there's no tomorrow. Plus, one's het for both strains of amelanism, and the other is definately het for one and possibly the other.
>>
>>Alex

>>My question is: Do you think there's any point in trying to match them up with their own species? I have no locality data for any of them, and they're likely all hybrids from captive breeding anyway.

Alex,
IMHO, I say go ahead with your plans to breed the new females to your male. Just call the babies black rat snakes and you don't have to worry. Now if you had locality data, that might make things different.

>>As long as I tell people that these solid black snakes are likely integrades, is there any problem? I realise a lot of people must have black rats that are simply that, black ratsnakes that are some combination of the three newly classified species.

Personally I don't think many people in the hobby give a rat's terd about Burbrink's new classifications. Hell I wouldn't even consider them intergrades but that's just me! I'd breed that male with both females in a few years and label the babies as 'CB BLACK RAT SNAKES', not intergrades ala Burbrink.

>>'Cause man, my new females are nice. Darkening up very quickly at a young age, and eating like there's no tomorrow. Plus, one's het for both strains of amelanism, and the other is definately het for one and possibly the other.

C'mon man ya gotta post pics!!!

Thanks.
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Dwight Good
http://www.kingsnake.com/obsoleta