Reptile & Amphibian Forums

let me start by saying that I know this post will draw out all the trolls/flamers etc, which is quite sad and far from my intention. There are a few people on this forum that would attack every post I make, if for no reason other than it has my name on it, this is the reason I have not posted to this forum in a couple years.

Due to recent conversations and feelings presented in them I feel the time may be right for me to voice my views on the subject of conservation again. I have posted this (slightly different version) on other forums and am really only looking to get people to sit down and use a little simple logic to think things over from a different perspective.

I for one do not have much of a problem with this new law in NY. I would like it applied a little differently and nationwide. Instead of no animals (with a grandfather clause) make it no imports or collecting of native species allowed, period end of discussion. now there will be arguments saying then only the criminals will have the cool stuf. so? they are already the only ones that have the cool stuf. they aren't going to stop if all reptiles aren't allowed at all either. instead of just oz animals and endangered species they'll just broaden their efforts to include africa, indo, phillipines etc. Will this solve everything? no. is this the only possible answer? no, but given the circumstances and the way the people in this (and other) country think, its the best available alternative. Any system that has "licenses" tends to lend itself to abuse by the regulators. (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely)

I do however have a problem with a statement someone made on another forum concerning the law (and the person is not alone in this opinion) "it always comes down to money and power & tyrrany over the People". Now I do agree that 99% of the laws and regulations in this country support this statement. Heck, one of the framers of the constitution said the job of the US government was to protect the opulence of the minority from the majority (keep the money with the wealthy and keep the poor poor). That aside I do not feel that we as humans (an intelligent species?) should have the power and tyrrany over wild animals simply for amusement and/or profit. I mean, seriously, sit down and think about that for a while before just lashing out and attacking my point of view. Does every animal not have as much right to live as you or I do? Ever seen the movie (or read the book) "animal farm"?

on a similar note. Do any of you agree with the rattlesnake roundups? (for the record, I do not)
we are all doing the same thing with the monitors and other WC animals we keep. We are exploiting them for entertainment and/or profit. Granted, some of them live a long, seemingly healthy life. Heck a few get to breed like mad in our little boxes, but they are still ripped from the wild to entertain us and provide a source of revenue, the same as the animals tortured and killed in a roundup. The only real difference is how long it takes for the animals to die, and if you look at it that way, the roundups have the upper hand.

Some of the arguments FOR importing monitors for the pet trade are the same ones used to support the roundups,
"The populations are stable with the ammount of animals being taken anually so the roundup/pet trade has no adverse effect on the numbers"
or
"the habitat destruction will wipe them out way before the roundups/pet trade will. If you look at from the animals point of view we are saving them from a slow death due to starvation when hundred of animals are forced to compete for survival in an area only 1 or 2 can survive in."
or
"how will the poor that count on this for a source of income get money if they aren't allowed to collect animals for the pet trade/roundup if you stop it?" (granted most roundup collectors are hardly poor).

now I know that me bringing up roundups is going to get this post flamed bigtime. again, for the record, I do not support roundups in any way, shape, or form. However, I do not see any signifigant difference between them and the pet trade when it comes to imports.
In a roundup,
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? no.
if anything removing hundreds of thousands of RODENT feeders from an area increases the rodent populations which are a vector for disease and destroy food supplies.

imports now.
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? no.
same reasoning + considering most imports are from poorer regions the animals are used for food themselves in small numbers (by comparison).

does a roundup torture the animals? yes.
is this wrong? yes.
does keeping an animal ripped from the wild in a cage torture the animal? yes.
is this wrong? yes.

are animals used in roundups mistreated before the roundup? yes. are imports mistreated before you get them? yes.
need I go on?

I am not trying to start a long drawn out fight here. I have voiced my opinions repeatedly on this subject over the course of the last couple of years and am only trying to get people to think a little.

many people claim to want conservation, but not if it keeps them from having (insert animal here)? Really? Is this actually conservation?

Eric

Gotta love your spirit! You should come out and do some field work/ social work with us.

O.K. YOURE RIGHT!!! Keeping lizards in boxes is no way to conserve them. Even breeding them in captivity, does not make a significant difference. Its just another excuse to keep them. `Im a hypocrit here, so Ill save you guys the time. I keep monitors, and have for years. Better said, Ive been killing monitors for years. However, the pet trade isnt where the problem lies. -But, that goes without saying, since we all know where the problem lies in species loss. Its habitat destruction. Plain n simple. Forget the skin market, the pet trade, and the natives peculiar eating habits. Forget all that. How about you instead, think about how youre going to save an acre of habitat. Instead of your next huge "breeding project", maybe you should just take those thousands of bucks and put it to something worthwhile? Spike a big patch of forest/ jungle! Give the money to conservation research. Do SOMETHING! That is IF you care about species preservation. Not just for the needs of you and I the consumer, but for the wild populations that DO NOT benifit at all by our current habits.

Something to think about...
Were so conservationally minded right, with our varanus breeding n all? Whats the first thing you do when you begin a "breeding project"? You BUILD A BIG ENCLOSURE! OK. So whats the point?? HELLO??? Where the heck does all the plywood, n other building materials come from?? You dont really think all that wood they sell at "Home Deepot" is farmed do you???? Yeah, so much for conservation...

well after reading all that i get down to your pic and all i could think was wow she is beautiful and smart!

NP

I heard the Gecko forum just has a cutest girl pic contest... Geckos have all the fun!

Hi Michelle,

#1 my post was not directed at you or any specific person on the forum. It was as I said intended to get people to think.

#2 on habitat destruction. Where to start?
first off, when Andy and I "tried" to start the varanid conservation group one of the biggest projects I wanted to raise money for was to purchase "rainforest acerage" in an attempt to save it from the lumber companies.

Also, at the time we tried to start the group Home Depot was the number one supplier of old growth rainforest lumber in the United states. I proposed that the entire "herper" community boycott Home Depot. and have ever since then told people to stay away.

We also were wanting to raise money to fund some research projects on varanids.

the biggest problem with stopping deforestation in poor countries is corruption and poor enforcement of laws. (power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely) Lumber, mining companies have vast fortunes riding on being able to rape the planet for the lowest cost and many governments are unable/unwilling to stop them. If the government tries they'll just pay off the police, military persons sent to stop them.

I personally have been re-using lumber for a long time. This is an activity we can ALL participate in to make an impact. I've also scavenged lumber from destruction(not construction) sites. I try not to purchase lumber if I can avoid it and at times I have used scrap pieces of lumber in remodeling jobs (own home) instead of buying new 2x4's.
another thing we can do is buy synthetic materials for building cages. This however presents an entirely new set of problems but helps stop deforestation.

Eric

You ROCK! I think your efforts are really commendable. Just keep doing what your doing, and encourage others to do the same, but you already knew that.

And, I knew you werent addressing me personally, thats why I tried to put that disclaimer there about my responce not being geared at YOU. Ive seen your posts at Cybersalvator, and I know the kind of person you are. Like Ive said before... youre a star!

i admire the both of you for sharing your ideas about conservation and stuff... i agree on most of your opinions except for the "breding them in captivity makes no significance" at all, on my opinion it does, just imagine how many gravid females are removed from the wild w/c 100% chance that wont be returned to it's natural habitat to breed again... right? plus add the fact of habitat destruction(which is very obvious) plus the locals eating them(cant blame them) plus the pet trade= no more species! but if, if "everyone in the hobby" can breed them in captivity and support it all the way, can you imagine what one of the factors of population decline can help? then have the locals, government and private individuals help in educating the public on how to preserve the habitat, give them alternative livelihood and other stuff, not just giving out money and spiking trees and other stuff... so that what i think is conservation... it's only my views bout it, coming from a country where limited people is concern about wildlife...

cheers!
neil

Heres what I said... "Even breeding them in captivity, does not make a significant difference." Let me aske you for a sec. How many animals does a person usually kill before they have any kind of breeding "success"? If they EVER do? What about Avilon zoo?? Was the number well over 100, and the product was ONE hatchling. I see the "breeding projects" as an excuse to own.

Again, Im not against the trade in general. There are certain practices (like the farming of gravid animals) that SUCK!! But otherwise, the impact isnt substantial enough to be able to use as an excuse to own them for "breeding purposes". I see habitat loss as the issue at hand to be tackled first and foremost.

Warmest regards,
Bengalensis

youre right with that aspect... but we both know that they didnt tried hard enough to provive it with essentials... plus the incubation method used= 1 hatchling

but let's face it... we cant do anything bout the wc that are already in the pet trade, so the best way is to try hard enough to breed them....

then next time you go here, i'll bring you to a place where if you try to conserve animal habitat, locals will raise their eyebrows and say" how come these western guys always trying to conserve the species without even thingking, we are the ones who are in dire need of help"

cheers bossing!
neil

p.s.
did you receive all the emails i sent to you? i hope

I think what Hendrix was suggesting (he can correct me if I am mistaken) was that, rather than taking more out of the wild to start specific breeding projects, people should be making greater efforts to breed the ones already in captivity. The more they are captive bred, the fewer need to be taken out of the wild. Stopping the pet trade isn't an option, for people will never accept that.

Even though the pet trade is not the major thing killing wildlife, habitat loss usually is, always think of the little steps as well as the giant leaps. The pet trade may not be the big killer, but it sure isn't benefitting populations already beleaguered by habitat loss and the skin trade, either. Most people can do very little to stop habitat loss, or aren't inclined to do so, but they can do something about the animals they keep at home. It can be choosing CB over wildcaught when they make their initial purchase, or trying to find someone with a potential partner for their lone wildcaught animal.

By the way, the pet trade can cause local extinctions. They may not wipe out an entire species, but they sure can wipe out a species from an area through overcollecteding. Also, for many of the obscure island species, we have no idea whether or not the wild populations are healthy enough to cope with collecting. Usually they are collected and hit the trade long before they are formally recognised as a new species.

you got my point... too bad i'm not that good in english, i'm a filipino

cheers!
Hendrix

Hahahahaha!

"By the way, the pet trade can cause local extinctions. They may not wipe out an entire species, but they sure can wipe out a species from an area through overcollecteding. Also, for many of the obscure island species, we have no idea whether or not the wild populations are healthy enough to cope with collecting. Usually they are collected and hit the trade long before they are formally recognised as a new species."

Well hopefully in a couple years, well know more about whats out there... especially in the indo area.

Hi Bengalensis,

Although Vara-farming has been suggested in a few places around the World (Philippines, Sumatra, India), it has been proven to be impractical and non-productive money-wise as it takes too long to make too few viable skins for the skin trade...but something needs to be done, and that something is to design and implement a living for the people who do engage in skin-trade business to do more conservation, as has been done in Tanzania and Kenya (used to include Zimbabwe, but to Hell with Mugabe and his messed up and illegal Gov't policies; now he says his native for farms policy is no good because the natives do not know how to farm or used equipment & Country is starving; all because his policy on education has dwindled for 15 years...the people are illiterate and white have all moved out and serves him right!) - and the same things go on for S.E. Asia too...the skin trade and felling of natural resources is the REAL killers in Indonesia - but what are these people to do? Catch Biawak or Starve? Come up with a viable plan and implement it and then go from there - but it all comes down to $$, and the natural resources always suffer because of it.
cheers,
mbayless

Hi Bengalensis,

Although Vara-farming has been suggested in a few places around the World (Philippines, Sumatra, India), it has been proven to be impractical and non-productive money-wise as it takes too long to make too few viable skins for the skin trade...but something needs to be done, and that something is to design and implement a living for the people who do engage in skin-trade business to do more conservation, as has been done in Tanzania and Kenya (used to include Zimbabwe, but to Hell with Mugabe and his messed up and illegal Gov't policies; now he says his native for farms policy is no good because the natives do not know how to farm or used equipment & Country is starving; all because his policy on education has dwindled for 15 years...the people are illiterate and white have all moved out and serves him right!) - and the same things go on for S.E. Asia too...the skin trade and felling of natural resources is the REAL killers in Indonesia - but what are these people to do? Catch Biawak or Starve? Come up with a viable plan and implement it and then go from there - but it all comes down to $$, and the natural resources always suffer because of it.
cheers,
mbayless

Perhaps Ill have to try some kare kare with marmaratus. Yummmmm

Like Neil said before, and being a born n bred Filippino (Im just an initiated Filippina) , he knows more than anyone the plight of his people. Its typical of agricultural societies though. The economical structure is in need of serious overhaul. People make fun of the University of Los Banos students and say that theyre NPA's in training. For those of you that dont know, Los Banos is a university of forestry and conservation, basically. Their standards are exceptionally high, and the rewards are small, as they are a school of faculty and staff that are working for a cause, rather than personal gain. Thats rare in 3rd world countries, because almost everyone is primarily worried about how THEY are going to survival, let alone how they are going to promote the survival of their natural environment/ wilderness. Sadly most of the Filippinos that ARE educated and qualified for professional positions, cannot earn what they are worth, and end up moving to America. For instance, Veterinarians are respected alot here in the states right? Well, in the Philippines vet medicine professionals are given little or no regard, and yet theyre just as, if not more qualified than the Doctors here. So why stay??
Not to say that its not possible to be comforatble as a Filippino, I just see many problems in the system, and there are not enough government rescources to aid those who need it. Thats just one tiny little perspective. Like I stated, the whole system needs to be overhauled, and our county hasnt done much to help. We exploit everyone we can. We DO create industry and jobs in countries where little opportunity exists, but we dont pay fair wages. I realise that the cost of living is VERY low in places like the Philippines, but if there were jobs that payed respectable salaries for the qualified professionals, then maybe that would be one step in the right direction. Geeze, the picture is alot bigger than just that though... I guess this isnt really the place...

Although Vara-farming has been suggested in a few places around the World (Philippines, Sumatra, India), it has been proven to be impractical and non-productive money-wise as it takes too long to make too few viable skins for the skin trade...but something needs to be done, and that something is to design and implement a living for the people who do engage in skin-trade business to do more conservation, as has been done in Tanzania and Kenya (used to include Zimbabwe, but to Hell with Mugabe and his messed up and illegal Gov't policies; now he says his native for farms policy is no good because the natives do not know how to farm or used equipment & Country is starving; all because his policy on education has dwindled for 15 years...the people are illiterate and white have all moved out and serves him right!) - and the same things go on for S.E. Asia too...the skin trade and felling of natural resources is the REAL killers in Indonesia - but what are these people to do? Catch Biawak or Starve? Come up with a viable plan and implement it and then go from there - but it all comes down to $$, and the natural resources always suffer because of it.
cheers,
mbayless

What if the dye used in that pretty little skirt killed some fish when washed down the drain?
What if the field that was plowed to grow the cotton killed the field mice?
What about the rubber boots you wore in the philippines for your conservation project? Do you know how many toxins are released to produce rubber??

My point is, we are all hypocrites, we do what is convenient for us.

Don't get me wrong, I thnk we need to use renewable resources as much as possible, but common sense should prevail.

Hmmmm..... maybe I'll burn down my house and go live in a cave. Nope can't do that, the smoke will contribute to global warming, harming some poor frog in some little province I've never heard of..........

"Don't get me wrong, I thnk we need to use renewable resources as much as possible, but common sense should prevail."

I dont get the "common sense should prevail" part. Common sense about what exactly? What are you saying? How does this apply to reasons why we should keep lizards in boxes? I get the hypocrit part.

Shoot, I was just pricing islands today. I think when I graduate from vet school Ill cash out my IRA's, buy an island, and go live in a tree for half the year.
my little island

I'll use you as an example.

If I understand what I read over the past couple of days, you bought a monitor while in the philippines. It doesn't matter what your intentions are, you emptied a cage that will need to be filled again.

Some other poor wild caught animal will fill that dealers cage.

No offense intended, I have bought wild caught animals too.

dont worry, i got that cage at my home now...
joke, i've been to the market yesterday, they have so many animals there again... i ask them when will they stop? and they said" as long as many local folks bring it here so they can buy food for their family and as long as some wildlife beaureu agents are taking part in the trade, and the govt is doing nothing, and as long as no captive bred animals that can supply us, how do you think can we sustain the pet trade if we'll stick to cb's? how are we going to eat? are you buying or not? if not enough for the conversation" hahaha i leaved that shop thingking, somehow they are right!

cheers!
Neil

Same with the drug trade.
I imagine the farmers harvesting the raw opium are just trying to support their families.
We as consumers create the market.

yup you read it correctly... because we have a daughter....

Your "common sense" statement. What you said is something completely different. We were talking about buying wood, boots etc. This had nothing to do with buying wc animals.

It was just a continuance of the converastion.

Warm regards,
Michelle

If imports were not allowed there would be no pet trade at all, is that good for anyone? IMO no.

In a roundup,
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? yes. Roundups often make 1000's of dollars and give support to small town economy's (I am AGAINST roundups just FYI).
if anything removing hundreds of thousands of RODENT feeders from an area increases the rodent populations which are a vector for disease and destroy food supplies. Increaseing the rodent population can be beneficial to other species who have to share the same food source as the rattlers, therefore if that species was endangered it might have a small population boom.

imports now.
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? yes. In third world countries (indo, africa) with monitors, many people EARN A LIVING collecting monitors for skins, food, decoration, and the pet trade. So yes it does help the peoples by giveing many a job.
same reasoning + considering most imports are from poorer regions the animals are used for food themselves in small numbers (by comparison).

does a roundup torture the animals? yes.
is this wrong? yes.
does keeping an animal ripped from the wild in a cage torture the animal? no. If the cage is large enough, humidity is right, temperature is right, feeding is right, etc. Many animals acclimate EXTREMELY well to captivity and do very good. Since this is the monitor forum it is noted how so many BT's, WT's, Waters, etc do EXTREMELY well in captivity and they are WC. So torture is letting the animal live another 5, 10, 15, 20+ years than it would have in the wild?
is this wrong? no.

are animals used in roundups mistreated before the roundup? no. Seeing as how before the roundups they don't have the animals. are imports mistreated before you get them? yes, if you get them from a low life dealer. If you get your imports from a well known, knowledgable, trusted, dealer then they are probably doing very well.

-----
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0.0.1 tiger crested gecko (peachs)
0.1 Red blood python (Rhianon)
1.1 Feral cats that we adopted (Fuzzy, and Bear)

My image Gallery

"Increaseing the rodent population can be beneficial to other species who have to share the same food source as the rattlers, therefore if that species was endangered it might have a small population boom." Im not so sure about this comment... Its a bit too "what iffy?". Most of the time when a predator is removed, it tips the balance. Same as when a species is introduced... -But im not for roundups anyways.

"imports now.
does it help the peoples of the area? yes. In third world countries (indo, africa) with monitors, many people EARN A LIVING collecting monitors for skins, food, decoration, and the pet trade. So yes it does help the peoples by giveing many a job."

Youre right, but its just terrible that these peoples governments SUCK this much, that their economy is in such shambles. But please, DONT get into politics!!! Im frustrated anough with our own policy here in the good ole US of A.

"does keeping an animal ripped from the wild in a cage torture the animal?" no. If the cage is large enough, humidity is right, temperature is right, feeding is right, etc. Many animals acclimate EXTREMELY well to captivity and do very good.
is this wrong? no." Wrong, no... but is it conservation minded?

"yes,(they are mistreated) if you get them from a low life dealer. If you get your imports from a well known, knowledgable, trusted, dealer then they are probably doing very well."

How many dealers give a lick about the welfare of animals? Dealing is about PROFIT!! You know those cumingi sell for about p1500 ($30) in the market before export?? You know how much the kid(or more likely local fishermen) that collected them got? Maybe p50. How about the guy that bought them from the fishermen to sell to the market? Maybe double that p50. -BUT, what did "Jack" in Florida pay after "Jim" unloaded them off them delivery truck in the back lot of his pet store?

So the mark up goes from less than $1 (original value) to a whoppin $1200!!! With the dealer making over $1000 in profit. Nice.

How about the MASS importaion of gravid females from Africa?? You can drop a bunch of eggs, get beaultiful healthy "CB" stock. Theyre healthy alright, but does that make the dealer any less of a slime ball??

Situation one, is alot nicer than situation 2, but ironically, when you see the product in the store window, you would think that dealer number 2 was "better". From a conservationists view, hes the worst of the worst.

If imports were not allowed there would be no pet trade at all, is that good for anyone? IMO no.

why would there be no pet trade? did you just read my post and reply without engaging your brain?

if there are no more imports then there is an actual financial incentive for people to breed the tens of thousands of WC animals that are already here now. It would raise the prices of even the WC animals in country dramatically = financial boon to those with the animals.
those with the ability to breed them would quickly take the opportunity to do so for the financial rewards they would receive from it.
I mean who (honestly now) is going to invest 2k setting up and breeding exanthematicus when an import only costs $5? or salvator for $15 or niloticus for $6?

In a roundup,
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? yes. Roundups often make 1000's of dollars and give support to small town economy's (I am AGAINST roundups just FYI).
if anything removing hundreds of thousands of RODENT feeders from an area increases the rodent populations which are a vector for disease and destroy food supplies. Increaseing the rodent population can be beneficial to other species who have to share the same food source as the rattlers, therefore if that species was endangered it might have a small population boom.

you are thinking short term
what happens when the animals numbers drop due to over collecting? the economy of the town that once was supported by the large influx of funds once a year is now completely gone. These practices are NOT sustainable

imports now.
does the collecting of the animals help the environment? no.
does it help the peoples of the area? yes. In third world countries (indo, africa) with monitors, many people EARN A LIVING collecting monitors for skins, food, decoration, and the pet trade. So yes it does help the peoples by giveing many a job.
same reasoning + considering most imports are from poorer regions the animals are used for food themselves in small numbers (by comparison).

again

you are thinking short term
what happens when the animals numbers drop due to over collecting? the economy of the town that once was supported by the large influx of funds once a year is now completely gone. These practices are NOT sustainable
+ the people depending on the animal for food are also now starving

does a roundup torture the animals? yes.
is this wrong? yes.
does keeping an animal ripped from the wild in a cage torture the animal? no. If the cage is large enough, humidity is right, temperature is right, feeding is right, etc. Many animals acclimate EXTREMELY well to captivity and do very good. Since this is the monitor forum it is noted how so many BT's, WT's, Waters, etc do EXTREMELY well in captivity and they are WC. So torture is letting the animal live another 5, 10, 15, 20+ years than it would have in the wild?
is this wrong? no.

you are thinking with selfish reasons. how many people here give their varanids multiple acres for a single animal? none. why? how the heck could you? simple, leave them in the wild. 99.9% of the animals that everyone sees in captivity that they believe are "healthy" are obese, overly stressed, and overall unhealthy.

are animals used in roundups mistreated before the roundup? no. Seeing as how before the roundups they don't have the animals.

actually most collectors do not go out and collect 2000 animals the day of the roundup. They start month(s) prior and while waiting rarely (if ever) give the animals any form of proper care. Not to mention the fact that many of the collectors use illegal methods for collecting (gasoline down holes) so I'm sorry to bust your bubble YES they are mistreated before and durring the roundups.

are imports mistreated before you get them? yes, if you get them from a low life dealer. If you get your imports from a well known, knowledgable, trusted, dealer then they are probably doing very well.
99.9% of importers treat the animals so badly it would shock you. even ones that have great reputations. I can not speak for every dealer/importer out there only the ones I have seen first hand. I have seen conditions in their "holding facilities" that quite literally made me sick to my stomach. and these were the "good guys". and since when is being ripped out of a burrow/crevice etc stuffed into a box/bag with 1-20 other animals not mistreatment?

I'm sorry but you are very naive when it comes to the "pet trade" as a whole.

I honestly think you are entering more of a philosophical debate than one that is actually possible to come to a decent conclusion on.

Keeping species of any animal is technically depriving them of their natural habitat.

We keep them to study their behavior, learn from it, and make observations and conclusions. We keep them for companionship, for insterest of facinations sake or maybe even because nobody else would.

If you say that keeping species is wrong then we'd have to delve into a philsopical debate about...many other things...

-is keeping plants wrong?

-is reaping the world if it's natural resources wrong?

-is abortion wrong?

etc...

Humans as a race have never proved to be perfect...and the truth is we will never change...if you have a chance read the books...

ISHMAEL

and

THE HUMAN ZOO

then maybe you'll understand my point of view.

Really, you can sit around all day pointing fingers at what is right and wrong but you will never draw a definite conclusion or solution to most human problems.

So sit back enjoy life and treat your little scaley critters as good as possible in their captive environment.

Of course, just my blatently, uneducated, smartmouthed, opinion...so don't take it for all it's worth.
-----
Chris Vanderwees

E-mail Me
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
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Hahaha! Seriously, he lost track of time while reading this classic and was over an hour late.

The pity about the human condition as it were... were more like a virus. Soo damn smart, that were stupid.

Anyways, you sir have officially proved yourself worthy to be invited to my island. You can hang out in my treehouse and ponder the shortcomings of our silly race...
my little island

np
-----
Chris Vanderwees

E-mail Me
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.3.0 Tokay Geckos
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.5.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
3.4.0 Mali Uromastyx
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor

The actual numbers of monitors, snakes, etc collected for the pet trade is actually not affecting the populations except a few rare species, but the skin trade is where 99.9% of them go. If we made fancy lizard and snakeskin purses, wallets etc illegal the numbers taken from the wild would drop big time. And the best way to save them is to stop the spread of humans houses, roads,farms, and buildings into every available space out there. Maybe there ought to be an enforced limit on how many kids people can have until our population drops alot more (oh yeah China did that, doesnt work to well).
Thats my opinion, besides Im still deciding whether I want to bring a kid into this world we have now some day.

Serious question, I read a lot of posts saying "Do something" or the like. But have any of you actually done something to protect a species or save a habitat?