Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Here are some direct quotes from another forum which have been echoed here more than once in the thread below.

"without someone taking these animals out of the wild and trying to breed them what is going to happen when their habitat is gone? Are they just going to be another species that is a faded memory that man wiped out?"
"I like the idea of captive breeding.
"The health, less impact on the environment, and in most cases better choices are found with cb reptiles over wc specimens."
"For the amateur herpetologist who keeps reptiles this question is a double-edged blade. Few of us want to face the fact that keeping wild animals is wrong. The best we can do is give them the largest, best set up that we could afford."

I would like to answer them here for all.

Ok. On the surface these reasons seem reasonable enough, and 99.9% of the people wanting conservation agree with it.
But, if you sit back and think again, your views may change a little.

Lets look at this from a little farther back.

Your import comes from far overseas. it takes oil (limited oil reserves globally) to transport said animal here.
You go purchase lots of supplies and lumber that possibly come from the animals old habitat in the first place to construct its cage. (plywood from Brazilian rainforests, tool handles made from old growth rainforests in Indonesia)

You then use a fair bit of electricity to keep the animals enclosure heated to the perfect temperature. (wasting even more fossil fuels)

Now looking at the big picture, simply by purchasing, housing, and keeping the animal you are; possibly supporting the destruction of its habitat, directly supporting the destruction of other animals habitats. All the while using habitat destruction as your main reason for keeping them in the first place. (this is an extremely simplified version)

Now I'm not going to fight about this small point, but it really is true and we ALL know it.
I'm sure some will ask the inevitable; "what about those that do not keep them they still waste the same resources and do nothing for the animals?"
This is true. but you take the average home without a "pet monitor" in it and they use less of them than the average home WITH a "pet monitor" in it.
Soooo, you are supporting your reason for keeping the animal simply by keeping it.

Yes this is an unpopular point of view, but it has to be said.

Please, just sit back and think about it for a while before replying.

Eric

You can also help the environment by GOING VEGAN!!! I had to put in my shameless vegan plug haha...

"Soooo, you are supporting your reason for keeping the animal simply by keeping it." What better way to legitimize it?

What should be done though? I would like to hear everyone come up with solutions to help. We can talk ourselves blue in pointing out the failings -which I believe is one of the most valuable steps in solving a problem, as alot of people dont even realize the impact of their DAILY actions, BUT we need to start talking about REAL solutions. People keep arguing for the promotion of captive breeding, but HOW DOES THIS HELP POPULATIONS IN THE WILD??? I admited before that theres a part of me that enjoys having this brilliant creature in a cage, in my living room, thats ALL mine to look at whenever I want to. I think thats why most of us REALLY keep these animals. If we TRULY loved them and appreciatd them for what they are, we would never DREAM of keeping them all locked up. And thats the TRUTH. Beyond our own sadistic natures as human beings, there is the bigger picture of the over all impact of our race. I know for one thing, that where I live, you CAN NOT function without a vehicle. The public transportation system SUCKS!!! Not only that, but EVERYONE and their uncle owns a gosh darned SUV!! I cant wait for gas prices to go up to 5 bucks a gallon! HAHAHA!!!! Us SPOILED Americans!! All we do is whine and complain, and were the most wasteful of them all. "America the beautiful." My F-ing sate rep, Mr. Terminator himself drives a HUMMER!!! A HUMMER!!?? JEEZUS. I would like to take a sledge hammer to every hummer and SUV on the road. Those stupid mustangs would get it too while Im at it -just for the hell for it. Oh yes, that would be nice.

Last time I checked Mr. Terminator was a governor not a state representative.

Also, you just might want to control your contempt, that is if you actually want to make a difference rather than whine and alienate people.

--Robert

Robert, I wish you would actually say how YOU FEEL, other than just pick apart what I say. Too many people do that. Instead of taking a point/ issue or what ever, and examining it for its CONTENT, they pick out a flaw or two and bash the author. If we were face to face it would be a whole lot easier, cause you could see that Im not all serious about the crazy things I say, its more to just be colorful and get your attention to the REAL problems at hand. You have to read between the lines. Like special effects in cinematography... all the explosions and FIRE! FIRE! Yeah, so anyways, try and look at the message and actually THINk about the CONTENT of whats being said, rather than nit-pick.

Regards,
Michelle

I keep monitors because I like them. I have eggs incubating because I want to see them hatch. Never has conservation been a reason or a thought to me keeping them. Keeping monitors is a selfish act, I can deal with that. I can also deal with driving to Home Depot in my full size pickup or my wife's SUV to get wood for w.c. monitor cages. It is selfish and I understand that.

But what I really feel though, is these threads have nothing to do with monitors.

--Robert

To talk monitors is to the monitor forum, to talk conservation should be to the conservation forum. Atleast the people there will want to talk about it.

People here already know of what was said, or atleast I hope they are aware of it. But there is no answer so why keep talking about it?

I too keep reptiles w/c c/b in boxes of wood, plastic etc. I drive a car runs on gas , I do all of the normal things we all do that go against conservation.

Why would one want to come on here just to sound like a hypoctrit? There are better things to talk about on a monitor forum that will help others out.

Whats the answer these people have? Are we to all go out and kill ourselves? I got an idea how about you person(s) bringing this up go first.

You forgot to add...

before you do the ecologically sensible thing and kill yourselves...give US all your monitors, FIRST! LOL We'll have no problem keeping them!
Michelle, I have dibbs on your indicus!

hahaha, just playin'...
D.

Yeah if you guys are going to kill yourselves us superficial monitor keepers would love to add to our collections.
Jody I have first Dibbs on your Cumingi. Just make sure they're ready for me in Daytona!
-----
Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

n/p

The only way to truely start over and help the environment is to essentially destroy the human race. Every last one of us would have to sacrifice our lives to save the rest of the earth.

It's that simple. Humans reap the world of its resources, and wipe out species...(19 species a year actually according to the last World Wildlife Foundation commercial I saw) So really humans should be eliminated.

There is your solution to every global problem you could ever possibly think of. The total and mass elimination and destruction of the human race. Any problem that humans caused would cease. Pollution, war, human expansion, religious and racial crimes...would all STOP. This would leave the rest of the world to run itself the way nature intended.

Again, if you haven't read ISHMAEL or the HUMAN ZOO...please do so and you might learn a thing or two.

This is the only solution I can see that would solve these problems we all speak of. Unless CloudyBengal and I buy an island, gain our own sovernty of it and make our own laws, rules and regulations.

Until the island thing or the elimination of the human race, just sit back and watch the world destroy itself.

And that's one man's morbid and sad depiction of a hopeless earth. Join us next week when I discuss chocolate chip cookies!
-----
Chris Vanderwees

E-mail Me
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.3.0 Tokay Geckos
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.5.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
3.4.0 Mali Uromastyx
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor

actually

this would allow the rest of the animals to thrive for a short time. Then when all the oil tankers sink there goes the oceans, the power poles rot there goes the land. The toxic chemicals we use in day to day life that are typically scattered throught the planet and deep under it would be returned to the planet. Only, this time, they would all be on the surface making the planet useles for most life.

Unfortunately there is no "real" solution because nobody would ever want to follow through with it.
I mean seriously, think about it. Would you only use mass transit, not watch tv, never eat at a restaurant, never go to a movie, never bother to use the computer, not use a phone, forget about modern medicine for yourself and children never prepare more food than you will eat right then, for the rest of your life? Yeah right.

now if you cut the world population by say 80% then there could be some major changes made. There are plenty of alternative energy sources available. Look at NZ they are using geothermal power to generate electricity. This is hot steam from underground. All they are doing is piping this and using it to turn a generator. There is little to no impact on the environment from such a system(unless you count the harvesting of the materials for it that is)

Eric

"Unfortunately there is no "real" solution because nobody would ever want to follow through with it.
I mean seriously, think about it. Would you only use mass transit, not watch tv, never eat at a restaurant, never go to a movie, never bother to use the computer, not use a phone, forget about modern medicine for yourself and children never prepare more food than you will eat right then, for the rest of your life? Yeah right."

Funny thing is, that I know a few "cray hippies" in Berkeley, CA that live life pretty much like that. Not to the T, but pretty darned close. Man are they a trip to live with! Hahaha. Not your "average" folk... Their parties consist of rallying in front of the WTO, and tading vegan recipes... Good people, I must say.

Not "cray hippies!!!!" gggrrrrrr!!! darn typos!!!!!

Sorry, but no. I disagree.

Humans must go. To save the earth...we need human extinction.

After all the "tankers" have sunk and poles have rotted...earth would not shrivel and die...it would rebuild itself and thrive in a world without humans.

Humans tend to "play god" a little to often. I didn't say to live like hippies or give up computers...I said to give up your life.

But don't go killing yourself because nobody will follow you...everyone loves their precious human lives so much even though they are about as meaningless as a Pauly Shore film.

Again, just my morbid, depressing point of view.

I'm buying that f-cking island...and getting SOVRANTY of it...end of story. This will be my last post on this topic as it is just a waste of time...and energy to debate something that will never come to a realistic or meaningful solution or conclusion.

I'll take the hippie route...just me and my island and maybe coudybengal if she wants. I'll pack Ishmael so we can read it and ponder the meaning of life.
-----
Chris Vanderwees

E-mail Me
1.3.0 Veiled Chameleons
3.2.0 Corn Snakes
1.3.0 Tokay Geckos
2.2.0 California Kingsnakes
1.3.0 South Florida Kingsnakes
1.1.0 Albino Sonoran Gopher Snakes
1.5.0 Leopard Geckos
0.1.0 Green Iguanas
3.4.0 Mali Uromastyx
0.0.1 Savannah Monitor

As I stated in the thread below I proposed that the VCG try to purchase acerage in monitor habitat to save it from the saw.

I actually looked into this trying to find the cost of land in the Philippines and Indonesia. Indonesia has lots of problems with people standing up to logging companies and the people getting killed when they try.
The Philippines on the other hand has a different problem, the government has a bad habbit of taking pristine lands from private owners for public use. Now the reports I remember reading (can't find them as of this post) stated that if it was undeveloped it was likely to be taken. I have also been told that the local news coverage of such actions say its only "illegally purchased" lands that are confiscated in such a manner.

take this into account when considering taking this route.

Eric

The guys hired to be the stewards, get more money to "turn the other cheek." The most effective way to protect a tree is to spike it, plain n simple.

A good example of that is Thailand's Game Reserve Park for tigers; there has not been a tiger seen there in 2 years, and the forest is empty of wildlife for the most part = a dead forest, 'quiety' dying out, but looks beautiful - is this our future or present status more-so than not now??

I doubt they can spike all of the trees - but maybe drastic actions need to be taken to counter drastic conditions?
cheers,
mbayless

that would be nice... reports that you gathered are wrong are all wrong!!!!media already edited those reports... so i suggest you guys go here and see for yourself without any debates at all, you're not helping the animals or the hobby itself by just talking idealistic, heroic deeds you are suggesting... but in the real world, it's not.... welcome to the realworld!

cheers!
neil

Its why most of the world do not "like" americans, they seem to know about everything and tell others what to do, without leaving their armchair.(in front of their TV)

Conservation is not about telling the world what to do, its about changing religion and politics.(birthcontrol and economies)

In the meantime, put ecology taxes on chainsaws($10,000 per unit) and bulldozers and like machines. Something to slow down the destruction. Then use the money to change the above.

Just think about it, Chainsaws and conservation, in the same sentence. Hmmmmmmmmm

Some of these people do the same with their thoughts on conservation that they do with monitors, they talk all about it, but do not actually apply it, again, its theory. It both cases, theory is worthless. FR

Its why most of the world do not "like" americans, they seem to know about everything and tell others what to do, without leaving their armchair.(in front of their TV) FR

Im not sure how you can speack for most of the world but I can`t agree.I`ve been to many parts of the world and MOST people that I meet strive to be like Americans or at least to have the same things that many of us do and wish that they could one day visit or even live here.We set the standard that they hope to one day achieve this standard is set by going out and doing it not by sitting at home in front of a TV and talking. Just curious tell me Frank were you born here in the US ? Our system has allowed you to live a privileged life and you've taken full advantage of it.The kind of life MOST people around the world would love to live. Ernie

This thread is about conservation and our system is what is causing the demise of habitat and species. Yes, its nice to have privileges and like you, I enjoy them.

Our system is based on the consumption of energy(the highest in the world) This energy consumption which is "our priviledged life" is what is causing habitat destruction.

And yes, you are right, as the rest of the world(particularly China)(which is happening now) catches on to our priviledged life. You will get the priviledge of seeing species after species dissappear.

Case in point, the picture Neil showed, Looked to be a field cleared from the jungle used for sustainance farming, that is, to raise food for the imediate family. Once westernization(energy comsumption, not governments) takes place, that village will buy a bulldozer(and chainsaws) and clear more jungle, then as they become wealthy, each family will buy a bulldozer.

With these new modern tools, they can now not only feed their family, but feed the village, then other villages. How wonderful, they can now buy trucks and TV's and have all the "priviledges" we have.

Oh, but what about the jungle, its gone. Oh well, I will get in my truck, no, my car, no my other car and go get drunk.(dang even the dang beer was made from fields that use to be habitat)

Please remember, its the habitat that preserves species, not CITIES or zoos or governments or some other organization.

Surely I do not know the answer, but sir, you do not see the problem. FR

p.s. please read the second to last paragraph, over and over and over. Its habitat that perserves species, over and over. Epifany occurs, it does not matter why the habitats gone, when its gone.

"Our system is based on the consumption of energy(the highest in the world) This energy consumption which is "our priviledged life" is what is causing habitat destruction. " Fr

And don`t forget US`s conservation efforts world wide are also the highest.No country spends the amount we do on both wildlife management and in looking for better and more efficient as well as more environmentally sound ways to use natural resources in addtion to spending to protect natural habitats.We are the world leader when it comes to conservation. Frank I have another question for you. Would you say your power consumption is higher, lower or the same as the average "American".Also is your power consumption mostly related to necessity, Luxury or business ?

" Surely I do not know the answer, but sir, you do not see the problem." FR

I have to disagree with you again. Please remember, its goverments working along with cites and other organizations that will be the ones that will be the ones with the abiltiy to preserve the habitat that preserves species.

Ernie

Ernie, its not about me, is it? its not about you either, or our government(that is a giant buhahahahahahahahaha) read the p.s. above.

I am afraid you do not read or understand so well,

The reality of conservation is this, it will cost human lifes to impliment. When and who will make that decision?

When its gone, its gone, it does not matter why, who, how, etc. GONE IS GONE. Thats all for me. All the talk in the world will not and does not save species, habitat does. Talk to the hand, hahahahahaha. the end(for me)FR

I am afraid you do not read or understand so well,Fr

Frank Im afraid you missed the mark again.But from your tone I feel the comment may applie very well to yourself.

" Case in point, the picture Neil showed, Looked to be a field cleared from the jungle used for sustainance farming, that is, to raise food for the imediate family. Once westernization(energy comsumption, not governments) takes place, that village will buy a bulldozer(and chainsaws) and clear more jungle, then as they become wealthy, each family will buy a bulldozer. " FR

Case in point When your house was built Im sure some heavy equipment was used.You live directly by the western system and have your whoole life now let me ask you did you go out and buy a bull dozer yourself ?How about your neighbors? Doe`s nature still exist around you? Can you go out and see most if not all of the species found within your region ? Ernie

You want to make it about me or you? you are, no you are, no you are.

Thats why I stay away from such a subject. Its not about me or what I do, or not exactly about you or want you do. Its not even about how we vote. Because, all the platforms are the same. Humans come before animals.

The important part was, has been and will be. Habitats house species, without a place to live, there will be no species.

Hey did u know they(the state and feds) protected 10 acres for our pygmy owls, north of town. The 10 acres was already surrounded by houses.

But don't worry, they bought 20 acres out in the desert to put the school on that was suppose to go in the original 10 acres. Save 10 acres in town, then destroy 20 acres in the desert, hmmmmmmmmm most excellent conservation tool. hmmm gotta watch out for that old bait and switch thing. The End. FR

Perhaps it was determined that the construction of the school on this 10 acre plot would have had a devastating effect on the species as a whole or at the very least that particular population.On the other hand the 20 acres of desert that was used would have a minimal effect on the populations of species occurring within that range thus having an over smaller effect on the environment. But Im sure you looked in to all of the details before determining that it was nothing more then just the old bait and switch.On the other hand maybe you don`t have all facts together and it really was an excellent conservation tool you just didn't see it.Your right human needs do come first and the town needed a school but the environment was also considered so a compromise was reached and while building the school in the desert might not have been the perfect solution it could very well have been best one when weighed against the alternatives.How`s the pymy owl population on that 10 acres doing today and have you gone out to where the new school is with your check list of AZ wildlife an done any population surveys to see how the species in the surrounding area are fairing today as compared to before the school was built?Maybe you can check and see the number of species that still occure on the school property itself You are right about one thing species do need habitat to survive but not always habitat as it was in it`s unaltered and pristine original form.For many species a place to live is just that it doesn't matter if it`s a tree or the side of a building.I saw a hawk NESTING right in downtown Manhattan (true story) it was amazing.How can a top predator survive in such a densely populated place? I wonder if that Hawk enjoyed it`s life any more or less then the hawks I saw in the mountains of western Pa. Ernie Eison

as a whole, they are active because they want to cover up something that is totally beyond you and all of our thingking... hahaha

seriously,as i said before, western people think too much of conservation of habitat, but dont you get the point? go here and stay for a year and you'll see that in order to achieve your "idealistic" conservation.... you have to be realistic first. provide the locals with alternative livelihood and educate them, but man, that is a long process...

on the other hand, living your life as simple as possible(without tv,computers,etc) would be nice, but do you think others will follow you even if set a good example? i dont think so...

again, this is the real world, welcome to the real world!

much respect!
Neil

"Like Neil said before, and being a born n bred Filippino (Im just an initiated Filippina) , he knows more than anyone the plight of his people. Its typical of agricultural societies though. The economical structure is in need of serious overhaul. People make fun of the University of Los Banos students and say that theyre NPA's in training. For those of you that dont know, Los Banos is a university of forestry and conservation, basically. Their standards are exceptionally high, and the rewards are small, as they are a school of faculty and staff that are working for a cause, rather than personal gain. Thats rare in 3rd world countries, because almost everyone is primarily worried about how THEY are going to survival, let alone how they are going to promote the survival of their natural environment/ wilderness. Sadly most of the Filippinos that ARE educated and qualified for professional positions, cannot earn what they are worth, and end up moving to America. For instance, Veterinarians are respected alot here in the states right? Well, in the Philippines vet medicine professionals are given little or no regard, and yet theyre just as, if not more qualified than the Doctors here. So why stay??
Not to say that its not possible to be comforatble as a Filippino, I just see many problems in the system, and there are not enough government rescources to aid those who need it. Thats just one tiny little perspective. Like I stated, the whole system needs to be overhauled, and our county hasnt done much to help. We exploit everyone we can. We DO create industry and jobs in countries where little opportunity exists, but we dont pay fair wages. I realise that the cost of living is VERY low in places like the Philippines, but if there were jobs that payed respectable salaries for the qualified professionals, then maybe that would be one step in the right direction. Geeze, the picture is alot bigger than just that though... I guess this isnt really the place..."

*In my best Al Pachino voice*

Im not sure, but I think I HAVE already been welcomed to the "real world." And frankly thats the reason WHY Ive said what Ive said. You KNOW how many hours of conversation weve had on this topic. Its not easy to promote conservation in 3rd world countries cause it take all their energy just to SURVIVE let alone think about how theyre going to preserve these animals that all these silly "Americans" (cause if youre WHITE, youre American) chase around in the jungles after.

Thats why I say... WE MUST DO SOMETHING, AND WE MUST DO IT NOW!!! Whether its one silly hermit crab at the watershed(j/k Neil), or spiking that last bits of forest fragments. Someone said that it would be impossible to "spike all those trees." Hahahaha if you knew really what "all those trees" constitited, you wouldnt be so pessimistic about it being possible. There are VERY FEW trees left that are suitable to be used for lumber. Over 96% have ALREADY been removed! We are talking TINY fragments of jungle that take maybe a 10 min to walk through!! This is ALL the habitat thats left for these animals!!!

Heres a beautiful picture of the lush jungle of Polillo!!! THINK AGAIN!! Thats almost ALL coconut groves, and not useable for olivaceus.

the Hermit Crab has got nothing to do with this!!!!(joke) hahaha
i know you are already welcomed in the "real world"... but all you saw here is just an introduction, you havent seen the most of it yet..hahaha
but seriously, i'm with you when bout spiking trees and other stuff, but education must come first at hand... you know that most of the locals dont even think of conservation do you? remember the floating plastics in the river that was thrown by one of the guys? you said "hey dont do that"... and yes, he did get it and throw it in the garbage bag, because you are in front of him... imagine that scenario, are there enough "white" people to be here and say that in front of all the people violating all those rules not only in the watershed, but in the whole phils. look in my case, some people think that i'm stupid coz i take part in some of this different "save mother nature" stuff(tree planting projects, fieldworks, eduacting kids how wonderful our animals are,etc)specially if you are doing it in slum(shanties) area....
i know you are an iniated filipina,and a good one, better than real filipinas... but you havent seen the worst part of being one yet...

much respect!
Neil

this is my last post regarding conservation, i'm totally full of this issues, here, there, and abroad! hahaha...