Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I am curious about these. A few years ago on my first trip to Texas, Brandon and I were turning around by the windmill on RR after having just talked to Mchambers and Shawn Devero. They drove off as we waited a bit, and then we decided to procede. We found a suboc that was around 26 inches that was so orange that Brandon and I thought that it must have been a color phase. We had no knowledge of an "orange phase" occurance in subocs. In retrospect, I realize that this is what it must have been. If Brandon sees this, I encourage him to comment...Did anyone else see the snake in question...Shannon? chad

Chad,
I remember seeing that one.We also found another this year that was like the one you and branden found,
The one We found this year blows away all we have even seen.If you could see this think in person you would understand.Its really hard to get a good pic of her for some reason.Ask brad alaxander or ric blair as to how it looks.Ric has been hunting the river road for a thousand years and said he has never seen one this orange.We are stoked and can't wait to see if it acually is a inheritable gene.
We found a average looking male not 100 yards away from her so we have a nice tight locale on them if they prove out.

Anyways,Have a good one.

shannon

I have seen several orange suboc, most of them between Fresno creek and the Big Hill. Also some west of the Big hill. I picked up a male last year and almost bred it to my Blond female just to see what happened. But it would take several years to get an orange blond if the gene did pass on. Still cool to look at. Several of them had an abnormal tendency to bite. Did yours?

Later Rick

Ours was a sweet as could be and she eats rat pups?I think a orange blonde would be cool but I think a 2nd or third generation orange would be even better.
We will see cause I am going to work on it.

shannon

Sweet! Man, you guys always find the coolest stuff out there. So I guess the suboc we found was indeed an "orange phase"? Sweet...chad

I saw this snake while Shannon was in Del Rio. This snake is very nice, but has anyone seen the orange Subocs that come from the Fort Davis area??? They beat all I have ever seen. I found (unfortunately) a road kill back in 1985 on highway 17 and 166 going toward the park. I had no idea they came in that color phase. I wish it would have been alive. I would like to play around with the gene pool myself with the orane phase, Axanthic Silvers, blondes and albinos myself.

Wayne H.

Hey guys, I posted down below the other day about these orange snakes and I'll put it again here: (Rick, remember your brothers orange blond male???).

Hey guys, Thanks for posting the photos of the beautiful suboc, or should I say ALTERNAtive looking orange specimen. It's interesting to see how often that orange phase sparks a conversation. I remember in the mid-70's, while hunting alterna (have to keep tipping my cap to which forum were on) we would find richly deep orangish red ground color subocs up in the davis mts., but to get one in south brewster county anywhere was extremely rare. Then, as the blond suboc craze began to gain speed (even with gray-banded kingsnake fans, he he he), hunters started paying more attention. We realized that that orange and also the silvery ground color could be found all over the bend region... Same with in blond suboc ground color. Ar first, the blonds were only thought to occur around pepper's hill... Now they have been found all over down there too, and also in varied ground color.

That one you got is a beauty, and if it's even prettier in life than all the better for ya!!! Great looking snake... and found by an alterna hunter LOL!!!

Yes, the blond my brother found was cool and also orange and also from Fresno Creek. It is true that blonds come from all over but they still seem to be related to the boquillas limestone. Hwy 170 from ghost town to Lajitas, Fresno creek, north of Luna Vista and Castalon are all on or near the boquillas limestone and all of those areas are connected by boquillas. I know this is Kingsnake but subocs also come from the same area. I wish they would change it to West Texas Forum.{sorry about that}. Rick

That's the point I was making. It seems most folks think they are only found in the vicinity of Pepper's Hill. I know they are not found range-wide for subocs. Good clarification.

I have seen some orange subocs in the Franklin Mts (a friend of mine found a really nice orange one on the doorstep to his apartment one evening), the Davis Mts, and up near Redford.

The brightest orange one I ever remember seeing was a blond phase snake that HKM had at his house in the bend when we visited there in the late 80s. Maybe time has skewed my memory, Hugh, but that snake was damn fine!
-----
Chris Harrison

Just brought back an orange ( will post pics as soon as this " washed up, old timer, rambo wannabe " can remember how )on last trip of this month. It was found on south 118 at the Xmas range. It bit the hell out of me upon catching. The one that was hit on 118 was also a orange. It seems every 5 to 6 trips down we find a orange suboc anywheres on 118 to the windmill on 170. Of course I have encountered over 200 subocs in over 30 years and i'm only a visitor. We have found a couple of oranges to slight reds at Langtry and Juno. Has anybody else found them there? Out of 7 blondes, all in the mid/late to early 90ties, 5 was on Fresno loop, 1 at terlingua proper, 1 almost at Study Butte. Who remembers that " ghost " or whatever some people called that suboc found by Shawn D. almost at terlingua ? I was 15 mintues behind him when he found it. Unfortunatly, it didn't live long in captivity. Also the positivly best looking suboc ( normal ) I ever saw was found by Shawn D. right before Lalinda on the Gap. It was very light in color with VERY distinct markings. Unless I have not seen post, I haven't heard of hardly ANY blond subocs found in years. Does anybody remember the theory that the mercury mines/area of Terlingua had something to do with blond subocs coloration ? Of course this was blown away with them being found on 118 all the way to the windmill. BUT...I wonder why ( in rememberence ) there hasn't ever been any blondes found in other aeras of the trans pecos !

Chambo

Mike, Maybe when they filmed the Andromida Strain back in 1971 which was filmed in Shafter off of 67. Maybe something happened to the area and effected the wildlife hence forth the Blonde and Orange Subocs. I know you are old enough to remember that movie!!!!

Wayne H.

it's what i do in the bathroom every time I come back from west Texas after eating that " Macho Chile Salsa " and drinking coffee with it at the Study Butte cafe. LOL ! Especailly when that nice Mexican lady cook makes a fresh batch of that salsa. Man, it's a must for a eye opener and stay awake while hunting. None of that NO DOZE needed when you consume some of that stuff. LOL !

Chambo

Hey Chambo, Yeah I remember the mercury theory for blond subocs... Actually, it better applied to the locals that lived down there who came up with that idea LOL!!! (As an ex-local, no-one jump my chile for picking on Terlingoids!!).

See Rick Greens post somewhere higher up. They are found on the main Boquillas Limestone formation in that portion of Big Bend. The mutation is a simple one that eliminates or reduces all longitudinal black pigment (ie = they are stripeless subocs). The diamond pattern blotching of blonds is present on all normals, just buried under the black and darker lengthwise marking. The blotches actually make up the cross bar of the "H" pattern that they are famous for. As with all permutations, they start small in one area, and if successful (for lack of a better word), spread out over time. It appears this is the case with the blond phase... While first found in the immediate vicinity of the Terlingua mercury mines, there has been no documentation that I am aware of showing any correlation.

Hey everyone, Thanks for the "suboc" patience here on the alterna forum!

who or whom would you be HKM ? I mean i gotta know ya being down there 49 times in 35 years and all during the DRUG days of that region. I've posted way back about them drug days when we ( most of us ) had no idea of the seriousness of the trafficking on those roads. In fact after being asked to leave RR several times by the cladded mickey moused tee-shirts ( Ol' John H. remembers this as well ) DEAs with auto-matic weapons in hand, and seeing what we thought was UFOs several times ( turned out to be survience blimps ), it wasn't until i bought that book " the Life and times of a Drug Lord " that i knew what was going on down there.

Did you read or have knowledge of all of this in those days? It blew me away especailly towards the end of his ( one of the biggest drug lords of that area ) when they had the shootout at Santa Elena village on the other side of the park boudry. And to think that old Ray Dungan knew all of this and didn't tell us ! ( unless you ARE Ray Dungan ). LOL !

Chambo

Hugh McCrystal... MOST DEFINITLEY NOT Ray Duncan.

I was living down there when Ray was living there and setting up the museum etc,. I have traveled there for years prior and since...

Yes the drug days were insane (and still are: trafficing never stops, just their tactics have mellowed.) Birds too... Lots of parrots are smuggled in through that stretch of the river road. Getting stopped by border patrol, DEA and customs all at once was always interesting. Saddleman and I would follow them around sometimes when we got real bored. Do you remember the DEA guy who had the bad lisp??? Dave. He was always nice to me but convinced that anyone driving the river road every night all night could not possibly be just hunting snakes...

Hey Hugh. I have been called a lot of things but never Ray Duncan. That is a whole new title for you. From now on we can just call you Ray Jr.
I remember Dangeroth Daf. He is probaly head of public relations now.
I also remember when you could drive down the River Rd. and see a bag of white powder on the yellow stripe and come back next pass and some good samaritan had picked it up. And when I could drive out in the middle of the night and get stopped before I got to Ft. Stockton for a thorough search of my truck. Ah the good old days, remember Ray""""" I mean Hugh.
Best Rick

Chambo. Where did you get the book, I can't beleive they wrote a book without our input. I remember those times, just us and Mickey. Some of it I miss and some of it I don't.
Did you ever figure out who was in the big White truck?
Are you going back in July?
Later Rick

going back in aug. By then i hope it gets HOT down there as to reports of RR only in the upper 70ties lower 80ties for the past days. ( I know it will get hot ). No, I never found out for sure who the white dually was but it seems they were down there around the trans pecos for maybe a month ? I and some other people thought at times they just turned into a off road and slept.

More later

Chambo

Mike---the majority of "blonde" subocs that I have collected have been on both sides of Pepper's hill. During the 80's and 90's ,I collected a total of 5 specimens from this locale including one specimen (sold to Louis Porras)that measured 6' 3" in total length and four from Hwy 118. I have collected two specimens since that time....both on the Fresno Ranch area....one in 2000 and one in 2002. I have been inactive for some time due to costs of gas, etc and because I hate to look at what is happening to the beautiful area where, once, we all camped out at the TeePees after collecting, ate beans as a daily staple and had fun "planting" our party favor--crowd pleasing fake snakes along the roadside----it is a damn shame that the area had to change into a rich mans "toy"....I guess I am getting too damn old....but man --WHAT MEMORIES !! Earl Turner

Hey, I even enjoyed the ray duncan ( Dung-an )guy in those days of us being down there. Now I happen to know that you have talked to ray not to long ago as i have ( at least this is what he told me ). He got ahold of me through this puter device and wanted a phone number but i wouldn't give it to him because one " entrepreneur " experience with him some 8 years ago ( diet fad ) was enough for me! The latter should make you laugh ! Remember that teacher that came out with you that one time when we were all down there and he had that toyota land cruiser ( I think that what it was ) and no sooner than he left rays house on the hill he hits a cow on RR ? Comes back leaking every fluid a vehicle could leak and we all go out there looking for a dead cow but can't find one ?
If you haven't been out there past terlingua this year, we are not kidding about Peppers Hill ( Ridge ) being partially leveled for a very WIDE road with a passing lane going up from the east and one coming from the west. Think of 118 at about the Wildhorse. This is about at least how wide that road will be if not wider. Like you said....oh the good old days down there.

Chambo ( one of the " washed up old timers and Rambo wannabes " )

Mike---that guy, John Richmond, was the luckiest collector I have ever seen. That very night, after he ass-ended that cow and had cow sh@t all over the front and the window of his Land Cruiser---caught a beautiful "Blonde" suboc !!!! The next day, he and I cleaned the front, bent the hood so that it would close and put two containers of stop leak in the radiator. He collected every empty plastic milk container---filled them with water and looked look a damn moonshiner making a run....the inside was completely covered with water filled milk containers !!! Damn if he didn't find a beautiful altera two miles west of Lajitas that night . He is wanting to return to God's Country and I hope he does----loves to drink beer and throw out party favors .....I am planning a trip out there in the latter part of July---if you are looking for anything in particular--let me know as I only keep King Cobras and four species of Bushmasters which we breed on a yearly basis and sell to Zoo's. It really doesn't matter what I collect --I love that part of Texas but hate what has and will continue to happen........Take care, earl

Yes that was a beauty!!

I have seen orange normals up in the Franklins too. Like I said earlier, it is not all that uncommon a color for them, particularly in the Davis Mts. Cheers Chris!! H