Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ok, I guess I'm just bored or feel chatty or something but I got to thinking about the discussion below in what makes a good first snake. I'm sure the topic has been beat to death over the years as to what makes the best so I'll try and add a little bit of a new twist.

Whenever someone asks what is the best snake or what is this snake like etc etc, we invariably answer through the eyes of what we value in a snake from our own perspectives. So I'd like to pose a question and rather than respond with an individual species, respond with what you value most in any snake. Since it's my post in order to get thing going I'll start..

The traits I look for most are handlability, hardiness/vigor, beauty, feeding reponse, ease of maintenence (temps, humidity, cleaning) ease of breeding, cost.

Since this is the kingsnake forum I'll stay in topic and rate cal kings on a 1-10 scale using this criteria.

Handlability 5 (hatchlings 2, adults 7)
hardiness 9
beauty 8-9 gotta love 'em
feeding rsps 9 only thing I can think of higher is pits
breeding 7
cost 9 only thing cheaper normal corns and garters
maintenence 5 -4 for pooping,-1 for escapes, rest is easy.

That's what I judge a snake on and how cals stack up. Please share what you look for and what means the most to you. It does not have to be in regards to a first snake or novice keeper. If you want to rate kings or any other species using your criteria go right ahead.

The first snake I personally ever owned was an garter snake. Me and my dad use to catch them all the time and my mom said we could keep one as a pet.These guys are fairly easy to handle since they are a small non constricting snake,they will readily eat gold fish/guppies and earth worms!They do not require large ammounts of space and are also forgiving in husbandry AND they are the cheapest snake you can get on the market price wise(mainly cause they are all wild caught expect for albinos and morphs but we won't get into that).For a starter snake you really can't go wrong with a garter/ribbon.

BUT as we all know most of us MEN think it's cool to own a snake who will kill and eat mice. This is a reason a lot of people own snakes,not just men but women also! Some people like watching the snake constrict the mouse and eat it...Thats just a simple fact. So as far as a constrictor goes even though I LOVE king snakes I will have to HONESTLY say that the best first snake anyone could own is a corn snake.

As we all know these snakes come in all sorts of wild morphs and colors which new ones indtroduced every year. You can get a rainbow of colors in these snakes.For beauty the corn snake definately gets high grades. They get a 10-10 from me.

Corns handle well and are for the most part very docile. Again every snake will have it's own personality so not ALL will be calm when touched but over all these snakes are very docile and tame when handled correctly. So as far as handling goes I will give the Corn snake an overall 9/10. Note I am not judging hatchlings as almost EVERY hatchling is a little fiesty.

Corn's are one forgiving snake when it comes to husbandry. Granted if you neglect ANY snake it will do poorly but little mistakes here and there the corn tolerates well. A few degrees over/under in temps usually won't deter this animal from being in overall good health. For hardiness I will rate a corn a 9/10.

Corns once started are good eatters. While they may give some problems sometimes usually they accept food readily. They are not as an aggressive eatter as the king snake but they will feed weekly most of the time. 8/10 for feeding.

Well we all know corns are the most common snake bred in captivity and as stated above there are tons of morphs to work with.Hell a lot of corns don't even need to brumate to mate! 10/10 for breeding.

Cost depends on the morph but average these guys are fairly cheap in price compared to most other colubrids. 9/10

Maintenence wise these guys are fairly easy to maintain IMO. They definately don't poop as much as a king snake does so spot cleaning is less but just like king snakes corn snakes are skillful in the art of escape! Even long term snake owners have lost corns. 7/10

I still prefer kings over corns but from an honest stand point corns are the best first snake for someone to own.

Handlability- I would have to go with a 9. All my kings Ive had over the years abou 11 as I recall, only one was a real problem, still have her. Hardiness- got to go 10. There was a time many years ago when I didn't give my snakes the care they deservered, that will never happen again. they are all still with me. Beauty-6 not the prettist but not the uglyist. Feed rsp-10. All of mine have go powerful feed rsp, just go crazy. Breeding- Been keeping snakes about 30yrs. have not bred yet, if you belive it. Hope to try it next season. Cost-10 all are fair priced. Maintaince-9 Only reason not a 10 is they crap more than any others I keep. Man we need to get out more!!!!!!

A few years back I started this excel chart using a series of variables that people consider when choosing a pet snake. I only used species that people would generally regard as good starting snakes (there are no coachwhips or venomous species, for example). I gave each snake a score for a series of variables and then totalled up the scores. The snakes with the lowest score would be the "best" starter snake.

The variables I used were size, temperament (ad and juv), handleability, ease of feeding (ad and juv), the cost of feeding them, the cost of the snake, and their overall availability in the pet trade (there is a legend at the bottom for some scores).

I will say I went into this with as open a mind as possible. I really didn't know which snake would come out with the lowest score and I'm surprised that some good beginner snakes placed as poorly as they did. Some species, like milksnakes, suffered because some subspecies are a pain while others are easy. I tended to err on the side of caution. I am aware that anyone else seeing this list is going to disagree with one score or another, but I tried to be as objective as possible. Just for the record, I have kept 26 of the 34 taxa listed, so am very familiar with them.

Common Kingsnakes scored very high, but fell short of Rosy Boas, Cornsnakes, and Baird's Rats.

-----
Chris Harrison

A hybrid

They have it all

That needs to be permanantly posted somewhere on the website for reference. Great job.

Without sounding prejudiced (being from it's home habitat. The very best begginer snake is......(drum roll).....The Florida king!

Major feeders....count your fingers please...eats a variety of foods.

Handleability....excellent even when fresh caught!

Hardiness....Think; Tank

Beauty....Variable but if you get the right one gorgeous!

Breeding...the sluts of the snake world (If you don't count garters)

Price.....usually dirt cheap.

Longevity....10 years or better.

maintenance needs.....basic as you can get.

Size....Big enough for a man, but made for a woman! (could not resist).

Need to get out more.....definitly!

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

It costs a lot more to house and feed a rat pounding Florida or Eastern King than it does a cornsnake or rosyboa (I have a pair of Easterns right now that are eating me out of house and home!). That is where they fell down a little.

They also lost a few points for the temperament of the babies, mostly because of those snappy little baby cal kings they were lumped with.
-----
Chris Harrison

Chrish
I have to disagree with you on the rosy boas. Maybe under optimal conditions (dry, bottom heat, low humidity, live mice for most ect )they do well but I would never reccomend a rosy to a beginner. Matter of fact I would put rosys on the bottom of the list.

1) fickle/finicky eaters. hard to get started babies.
2) When they are good feeders some have a nasty bite due to feeding response.
3) humidity and water dishes are not reccomended and that takes more explanation to a beginner.
4)small meals must be fed. regurges are common
5)they are more delicate snakes to keep. In general weak captives.
6) live bearing/no double clutches=low returns w/breeding

Floridana/eastern kings are about the toughest and hardest to kill and have nice disposition.

I remember when I had a Rosy a long time ago I read something about water dishes and keeping them really dry. Also mine was pretty nasty as well and he had a nice set of choppers on him as well.

Keith
-----

Great job, Chris! That could be the start of a serpentes version of the BCS!

Jeez, what am I thinking! I hate the BCS! :O

Actually, your chart could serve as a good start for other experienced snake owners to submit their own ratings, perhaps leading to averages that would represent consensus ratings. I agree very closely with your numbers overall (at least for the snakes I have experience with) , but obviously there will be others who would rate some things differently. One suggestion would be to either modify the "handling" definitions, or omit that category (since it's covered somewhat under temperament) . As currently defined, a retic is easier to handle than a rough green.

How about setting it up similar to the way Consumer Reports rates all of their stuff, i.e., a 1-to-5 scale for each elemant ranging from much worse than average (1) to average (3) to much better than average (5). This is sort of a reverse of your numbers, but only in the sense that a higher score would be better instead of a lower one. You'd only need guidelines on how to rate each element, so I'm fairly sure that there's someone out there with the computer savvy to set something up that would keep running averages and overall rankings. It would be a great reference list!
-----
MichaelB

Actually, your chart could serve as a good start for other experienced snake owners to submit their own ratings, perhaps leading to averages that would represent consensus ratings.

I once thought about learning how to set up and online survey/database, but then I started looking at the some of the posts on these forums. You see an "expert" giving detailed advice to someone, then you scroll down and see that the expert bases their expertise on having a cornsnake named Sasha and a cal king of unknown gender.

I am afraid that too many inexperienced people would give misleading or biased input - "I have a Mangrove Snake and they are the best! They are much better than Cornsnakes!"

One suggestion would be to either modify the "handling" definitions, or omit that category (since it's covered somewhat under temperament) . As currently defined, a retic is easier to handle than a rough green.

I actually kept that separate deliberately. While a Rough Green is not likely to bite or hurt anyone, they are not a snake that tolerates handling well and they are very fragile. Many Retics, on the other hand, can be reasonable easy to handle until they get too large. You will also notice that I gave milksnakes a bad handling score. My Black Milks are great handling snakes, but most people's first exposure is going to be with young Hondurans or Pueblans, neither of which deserves any special recognition as a handleable snake!

How about setting it up similar to the way Consumer Reports rates all of their stuff, i.e., a 1-to-5 scale for each elemant ranging from much worse than average (1) to average (3) to much better than average (5).

I kind of did this, except I qualified the basis of what average, worse than and better than mean.

This is sort of a reverse of your numbers, but only in the sense that a higher score would be better instead of a lower one.

I originally started this way (high=good) but it makes it harder to incorporate variables like size and costs as they are already inversely proportional to the appropriateness of a snake as a starter. That's why I stuck to a low=good strategy.

I would love to see it incorporate the experience of other "experienced" herpers, for example, people with more than 100 snake years of experience (sensu Dave Barker). I guess you could restrict voting to species that you had more than 1 year experience with and had experience with more than two individuals (i.e. you can't cast any opinions about snakes you don't have enough experience with). Of course, there would be no real way to police this.

Without that sort of restriction, I would be worried a few biased newbies would skew the scale to see their favorite species "win". Many of my favorite species didn't score well, but that wasn't the point of putting it together.

Also, less common species that are great beginner's snakes (Dione's Ratsnake or Russian Ratsnakes) would fall way down the list because few people had any experience with them.
-----
Chris Harrison

I still love the chart and think it can be a valuable tool. Everyone needs to keep in mind the scores a species recieves and how somebody may feel about keeping that species may have absolutely nothing to do with each other.

As an example, I am sure somewhere out there is someone whose favorite species is king cobras. Now lets look at that cobra in terms of the chart... can reach over 15 ft long, has very specific caging in terms of temps etc, diet is other snakes, has a nasty temperment, I don't know if they have been bred in captivity or not, probably costs a fortune but I haven't priced them lately, and oh before I forget, has venom that can kill how many elephants? So on the scale they probably have an astronomically high number.

But that doesn't mean there isn't someone out there who loves them and if they put in the time and energy and research they may do ok with them and love every minute of working with them.

The value of the chart is breaking down attributes of species into parts, it gives people a chance to see how a particular species stacks up in the criteria that they value. As an example I don't give a hoot about morphs but there are people shelling out 10s of thousands of $s for the latest ball python morph that in my eyes are no more attractive looking or better handling than the mite and tick infested import for $20 at dedpetsRUS. I do on the other hand greatly value handlability and predictability as I like to set "Hillary" out on the floor and let my 2 year old pet and admire her.

That's why I specifically mentioned "experienced" herpers in my previous post. And even they wouldn't be qualified to "vote" on every snake listed. E.g., I could provide what I think would be reasonable numbers on L. alterna & gutata, E. obsoleta, T. sirtalis, and several others, based on years of experience. But I know little to nothing about Balls, boas, and just about every other non-domestic species. It would be tough to decide on who gets to have input to a consensus.

As for the less-common starter snakes, you still could get useful numbers. Just a smaller sample size would go into the consensus.

I also would have a "total cost" rating, including not only the snake itself but a relative rating on the cost to maintain it. That would take into account the cost and quantity of food, size of the enclosure (bigger snake means bigger, more expensive housing), and any other extra costs such as special heating/lighting/humidity requirements for some species.

I see your point on the handling vs. temperament issue, but still think those two could be combined. Greens are relatively skittish but are among the most timid of snakes. The risk of being bitten is virtually nil, while a large retic could be lethal if he decides to put the coils around his owner whilst being handled. Yes, greens are delicate, but aren't they all?

Anyway, I still like the chart and the overall concept, and think you've done a great job Chris!
-----
MichaelB

to see the bairds rat in the top three. Incredible snakes IMHO and way to over looked. Nice chart Chris

I know nothing about rat snakes but thought they were hyper and bit all the time?
The Bairds rat snake is an exception?

Lia

Well rat snakes never gave me that general impression though some like the TX rat are on the nervious side. Baird's handle well, eat great, have awesome color, don't get too big are showy and not always hiding in their cage. The only drawback that I can think of, and this really isn't one, is that they "show" best in larger cages with some vertical height for limited climbing.

For more info follow the link to my old site page on Bairds:
Bairds

Thanks for the site. My friends dad has a white Tx ratsnake and 2 other types not sure what type though. All three bite and go crazy if you try to pick them up so he doesnt but like you he houses them in large cages with sticks to climb and wooden shelves to climb to.
They are very active and actually think climb more than stay on the bottom. When ever I go there they are on the shelves or top of the "tree"
The Tx ratsnake is by itself the other 2 housed together but again all in big cages they arent storage bin type snakes dont think corns should be either.
Thanks.
Lia

Chris, I love this chart and I am glad to see that I'm not the only person in herpdom that needs a life I did the same thing on Excel for all my past girlfriends. It opened my eyes to what I already knew, so I guess it didn't really open my eyes. On the other hand, it corroborated what I felt in my heart. Now, if I feel in my heart that corn snakes are the best starter snakes, will that bias my input into the database? It could, but it doesn't have to. Breaking down a snake's (or girlfriend's) desirability into categories will tell you why a snake (or girlfriend) is more user friendly than another I think it all boils down to what an individual is looking for in a snake (or girlfriend). For example, physical attraction was very important to me when rating past girlfriends. Cooking ability was not. By the same token, bright colors in a snake species might trump a calm temperament for someone in the market for a display animal. Bottom line is that the individual is the only one that can decide what's best for him, and a chart like yours certainly is a great idea to see what fits a person's needs and wants. If nothing else, it's fun. (Jeeze, I gotta get out more).

I go for the snakes that have been kept the most successfully in the past by the most amount of people. I guess hardiness is my only pre-requisite and I leave the rest to whim.
-----
Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

Two things i thing you guys missed.
1- VISIBILITY I like snakes that dont hide all the time in the hide box. I have a black rat snake that sits in on a branch in the glass tank and watches me while i sit at the computer , now thats COOL
2- Snakes you find yourself can be more prized to some then the one you spent money on. Ya have to find cool snakes i guess but that part of the fun