Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i saw the post below and was interested as well. i was doing a little research and found a site-http://www.kingsnake.com/snakegetters/demo/vet/equip1.html that talks not about this particular walmart brand, but nix lice spray which it says has the same active ingredients. if you read it, it says it works, and is relatively safe, but you have to use it on everything at once, make sure that the animal cannot ingest it, and not get any on the head. it will harm fish and arachnids, but apparantly it works while dry...better in fact. however, who knows the inert ingredients? im going to walmart today and am going to check it out. seems risky, and effectiveness is uncertain in my mind. any opinions or thoughts?

the dictionary defines inert as:"having no pharmacologic or therapeutic action".if the inert ingredients make a difference as some have suggested,then by defination they are not inert.the bedding spray is made to be used around (not on) humans,the other product on animals,i wonder which has the higher standard?the product that is approved for animals has a bold lettered warning on the back of the can:"RECOMMENED FOR PROFESSIONAL AND VETERINARIAN USE ONLY".that scares me,i'm a hobbyist why do i need professional training to safetly use this product? is there more to this issue than what meets the eye,seems to me there is.

have you read the back of the equate brand? i did last night. it has a warning about use on humans. lots of them in fact. one says that if contact is made with skin, remove clothing and rinse for 15-20 minutes. also call poison control. FOR SKIN CONTACT! i dcouldnt believe it.i was hoping i foud something, but i surely wont be trying that product, as it is intended for human use, but is harmful even to them. how would a poor little snake react? also, even the webpage i was talking about STRONGLY cautioned against ingestion and face contact...personally, it was worth checking out but i will not use it. also, inert ingredients can have an effect when you are using the product against its intended use-ie- using it on reptiles instead of humans

i invite you to read the back of the $20-25 can,you will see much of the same warnings.it would seem that neither product is safe unless used as directed.they have so much in common,you could think that there the same product,except one cost 5 times as much!

i agree that every medication has its side effects when used incorrectly, but the fact that this had such outrageously strong warnings definately deters me from trying it. i highly doubt that mite meds designed for herps have that strong of a warning. also, these medications havent really been tested on herps, and personally, im not going to make mine the test subjects. id rather spend the extra money

the warnings on the product intended for animal use are much more intense and as i have already stated it's only recommened for trained professionals.you do have a can don't you bob er ah i mean tony.

First of all, I don't hide behind "fake" user names when I make a post. Your comments show that you have a little knowledge about this subject (and a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing). You make statements as if they are absolute facts, when you are not right. What are your credentials and where is the research, data or clinical studies to back up your claims. Mammals are quite different than reptiles physiologically, so an inert ingredient that may be OK to use on one can very well be quite toxic on the other. It would not have to be listed as an active because it did not have an effect on the target host tested, but it could dramatically effect the toxicity when treating a non labeled, non tested host. We spent over 10 years working on various formulas before we finally found the right combination of ingredients that would be totally effective while not causing any health risk, either acutely or chronically, when used as directed. As to the "RECOMMENDED FOR PROFESSIONAL AND VETERINARIAN USE ONLY" statement, we put that on there to hopefully make people "think" and use the product per the labeled directions and not to misuse it. That statement is not required by the EPA. Any analogy saying that these products are basically the same because their warnings are similar is also false. These are to warn the user (humans) about potential risks from use, only the directions for use section will explain what the product can be used for and any risks for the subject host, which is completely absent with all products except Provent-a-mite for use with reptiles. Call any of these other companies and ask them if their product is safe for and can be used on reptiles and to put it in writing

People are always saying "I have been using this (whatever) method for years without any problems or health risks", but they don't know if or how the treatment may be in fact having a negative impact on the animal from long term poisoning, to a shorter lifespan, to lower fertility, etc. This is why the EPA requires extensive testing and studies on the target host to be sure it will not have an adverse effect. If you think that everything recommended is safe, or the same as other products, I invite you to contact Mr. Larry Kenton from Maryland Reptile Farms (410-526-4184) and ask him how many animals were lost when he used a "copycat" product he was told was the same as Provent-a-mite.

Understand that Nix (this goes to Tony's post) is an FDA approved product, so must list all of the ingredients on the label, whereas an EPA product only has to list the "active". This doesn't mean that there can't be chemicals in the EPA approved formula that will not create a health risk to a reptile, especially when it has never been tested or approved for such use. Nix has in its formula, among other chemicals, one that is used commonly as a fabric softener and strong surfactants. It also doesn't have to list the isomer of the active being used. Can these be harmful?, no one can give an answer as they have never been clinically tested. Some isomers of the active are definitely toxic to Reptiles. Nix is also designed to break down quickly (FDA didn't want the active on one's head for a prolonged period of time), so the product will start to break down once exposed to light and air. The cost per application is also in reality, much higher with these products as one will have to make a new batch each time due to the solution breaking down at an unknown rate and will need to apply numerous applications because of little or no residual effect. Provent-a-mite has a shelf life of approximately 7 years and a cost to treat a 4' x 2' x 2' cage of about 50 cents. Preventative treatments that will last at least 30 days with Provent-a-mite cost an average of 5 to 10 cents per application for most caging.

Without going through the scientific studies required for Federal approval, no one knows if a product can potentially harm the host or environment. Remember all of the claims made (and still made) regarding Pest strips. Despite any individual argument, it is clear they do pose a significant health risk to reptiles. This was determined only after years of use with "our" animals being used as guinea pigs and has been confirmed by some of the leading vets in our industry. Another major concern is the development of resistance to the product. Even when being used in the recommended label dosage, which is a dosage that is definitely toxic to reptiles, some lice medications have created resistant strains of ectoparasites in several countries. Since no one knows what if any dosage of these products is correct, you have no idea if the mixture is too strong or too weak, both which can have potentially devastating results. Even if the amount is toxic enough to kill mites initially, the formula will start to break down resulting in a sub-lethal mixture soon after. If we start to create a strain of chemically resistant mites, the future could look pretty bleak for everyone with potentially disease carrying mites and ticks rampaging unchecked through our collections.

Bob@ Pro Products
Pro Products

...................to say i'm useing a fake name to hide behind.my user name "TWH" are my intials.you can email me any time useing that handle.in fact i will email you my private phone number if you desire.this tatic is as old as the hills,if you don't like the message you simply attack the messenger.frankly i thought you would be above that.i was made aware of bedding spray by a herper/chemist who knows what those signs attached to the active ingredient mean. ijust spent some time on the phone with larry kenton.the product he used that killed his snakes was called "sawyer bug spray".he's not sure what the active ingredient was,only that it was similar to your product,hardly conculsive.there's a rumor floating around (i'm not sure your aware of) that you/your company has taken legal action against the company that produces black knight and that's why it's no longer available.sad to say these kind of things can get ugly.would you please take the time to shed some light on this subject,and clear the air once and for all.
TIMOTHY W. HURKMANS

Tim,

I think if you read my reply, you will see that I was referring to your comment implying I was using a "false" user name, not you. If your friend is truly a chemist with specific knowledge about pesticides, he will know that there are many variables regarding an active and a formula. Without full knowledge of the entire formula (which are major trade secrets that no company will disclose) and what source the active is coming from, no one will know how it can potentially affect any non labeled, non tested host as I explained previously. This is why the EPA requires significant testing for the specific host to be sure it will work as indicated without any undo risks, both health and environmental, before the company is allowed to put that use on the label. If you read any pesticide product, one of the first statements listed is "It is a violation of Federal law to use this product in a manner inconsistent with its labeling". This is because they don't want products being used for untested purposes which could lead to numerous potential risks, not only to the untested host, but more importantly by creating problems such as resistant strains of pests, environmental hazards and so forth. By using products in this fashion, you are "donating" your animals as test guinea pigs. Despite any claim by any person, without proper testing using established protocols, no one knows what could occur. Again, pest strips are a perfect example of this.
Larry Kenton called me a few days after he had spoken to you. He told me that he explained to you that he was told the Sawyer product was the same active in the same concentration and was told it was the "same" as Provent-a-mite. Only after losing many snakes did he find out this was not true. If you look at the Sawyer label, it sounds like it is the same basic product as Provent-a-mite, but the fact is that they are very different. One chemical that we know is in their formula, which is an inert, would have to be listed as an active with reptiles, as studies we have performed show that it is toxic to reptiles, as Larry found out the hard way. For the same reason, this product would never receive EPA approval for use with reptiles as any proper study would show it is potentially toxic to them. Almost all of the products sold in chain stores are made in the same plant with the same formula, they just private label them with different names for each chain. So to say that one is better or "safer", obviously can't be true.
As to Airosol, they were found guilty by a Federal court of violating the Federal Clean Air Act, selling a product that destroys our environment by using chemicals that have been illegal and banned for such use over 10 years ago. Aren't we supposed to be more concerned about these matters, being that we care about animals and the environment they live in (not to mention us). These very chemicals are suspect in contributing to the demise of amphibians worldwide as well as other problems. There are also charges pending for fraud, deceptive trade practices and willful deception to the reptile industry regarding the use and safety of the product.
Few people know what is really happening regarding this matter and definitely do not have all of the facts. Despite this, they have no problem believing any rumors that are floating around without finding out the total truth of the matter. If you or anyone wishes to find out what is going on, give me a call and I will be happy to tell you what I can (845-628-8960). FYI, one of the largest "distributors" of this product that are also responsible for many of the rumors is suing Airosol for the reasons stated above (but they fail to mention that).

Bob@Pro Products
Pro Products