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Submitted for your approval:

These little rascals have a few similarities. They're all a lighter yellowish coloration than usual. Also check out the radical clear belly effect (like Pastel Jungles but more pronounced.) They all have that as well.
I have another clutch coming up, and if they are all like these that means it's definitely co-dom. It also means that Daddy Kalabash is a Super!
thnx
Tom Carlton
Cypress Creek Reptiles

Yea they are lighter than normal yellow and have a very nice clear belly but so do like 600 ch's that came out of ghana this summer that people have been trying to pawn off as pastels....I am not tryin' to say I know and you don't but the only way to find out would be to breed it to a proven pastel line...If it is a pastel then it will mesh with the other line like pastels do and give you a super form or a new morph...Good luck with the project!

Not to be pessimistic but I think that since the dad was so different that you just WANTED the babies to be something else....I haven't seen them in person so I'm not sure exactly what you are seeing...but I think if you prove it out with a few more breedings it would make more sense....but as of now I'm not really convinced....

Luke

I know about the ones coming out of Ghana as well. But what's interesting is that these are all the same coming out of one clutch. You are right about crossing these with Pastel Jungles.
Believe me I can't wait to put one of these with a Pastel.
thnx
Tom

I would agree, they look very much like sevral i hatched this year from normals as well as hundreds of cf's ive seen over the years!

Seems to me that you are probably on to something but that it might take an extra generation to pin it down.

With co-dominant mutations it's not that out there for the heterozygous animals to be pretty subtle. Just be glad if the turn out to be consistent (i.e. easy to pick out due to the belly etc.). The dad looks odd enough to me in that one pic. Is he sort of axanthic looking in addition to the faded reduced pattern and white belly?

As far as figuring out how they may or may not be related to pastel you have a lot of work on your hands. In the case of the cinnamon pastel (I also didn't see much there before the pewter) we still don't really know how it relates to pastel jungle. Just because they combine to produce a really weird animal (the pewter) doesn't necessarily mean they are alleles (different mutations of the same gene). They might be unrelated mutations and the interaction in the double het is such that it produces a pewter anyway. The test will be when the pewter is bred to a large number of normals. If cinnamon pastel and pastel jungle are alleles, then the pewter has no normal copies of the common gene and all of it's offspring will be either pastel jungle or cinnamon pastel (no normals or pewters when bred to a normal). If they are two different genes then it will produce about 1/4 normal and 1/4 pewters (and 1/4 pastel jungle and 1/4 cinnamon pastel).

So, by all means breed your animal to a pastel but you will then need to keep any odd looking combination babies and breed them to normals and see if they produce any normal babies or not to see how the two mutations relate.

My thoughts exactly.
When I showed these pics to Greg Graziani he said in his opinion that I'm looking at a dominant gene definatly, co-dom once daddy is proven to be a super. I think daddy is a super due to the fact that all the offspring look the same, not just 50% of them.
But I could be jumping the gun on another aspect of this because I know that daddy has an IMG gene mixed into his genetic makeup.
The father orinated from a shipment of ch imports from Dan Sutherland. He just looked like a reduced pattern ringer with the black bands as velvet as they come. As he grew with each shed he became more and more axanthic looking (IMG).
When I bought him last year at the Chicago show he weighed 600 grams and had no yellow at all. Also the reduced pattern and the strange Artic/Calico effect hardly escaped me eye.
So with that background and realizing that co-dom can be subtile and doesn't have to be "off the wall" I agree with Greg that this is Dominant.
What will be interesting is to see if after several subsequent sheds, whether the IMG make up of this genetic puzzle has pasted dominatly to this f1 clutch or is the IMG gene recessive meaning that I won't see it again untill I breed Daddy Kalabash back to his daughters.
At any rate in time I'm sure we are going to see some "off the wall" combinations from this gene.
Here's another shot of dad.
thnx
Tom Carlton
Cypress Creek Reptiles

Randy:

Here's the pic I ment to submit.

Tom

Definitely something going on there. Very nice reduced pattern, like you said, would make a great pastel.
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JMHO, FWIW, YMMV.

Not to spoil it for you, but those defintely aren't pastels. They are however very nice abbarents taht you have proved. They are definitely still marketable, just not as pastels. Good luck with it, and they are still very nice snakes.

What in the hell does Kalabash mean?......

Great looking belly's and patterns on those little ones Tom.

Good luck on further proving this gene...it'd make some nice patterned pastels thats for sure!

Joel
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- Joel

Email Me!

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sig file edited.

Edited on July 22, 2004 at 17:19:30 by phwyvern.