Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi,
I’m always interested in the debate over whether box turtles can be kept indoors successfully or not. I’ve seen several animals that are going into their second and third decades as indoor pets who seem to be in excellent health. I keep my box turtles in indoor enclosures that measures 8 feet by 4 feet with an 10 inch layer of dirt as a substrate and a small filtered pool. UV lighting is provided by a bank of 48 inch flourescent tubes. A hot spot is provided using a UVB basking lamp. The temperature is controlled by a thermostat. Floor and walls are covered in ceramic tile and there is a glass window approximately 6 by 4 on the front of each cage. I live in northern Canada so their access to the great outdoor’s is limited but does occur. Hibernation takes place in a fridge indoor’s. I hibernate three months of the year and the rest of the time they are up and active. Breeding has occurred with regularity. As I said in a previous post, I don’t see a great deal of difference in activity levels indoors and out.

I’ve heard anecdotal evidence both pro and con on the subject of keeping animals alive and happy indoors, but are there any published studies out there that would support that postion ? Or anything out there that would discount it. I’m not trying to start a war, I am GENUINELY curious about the subject and would love to hear about anyones firsthand experience with this.
Thanks in advance
David

Good topic. Although if there are people out there that have successfully had box turtles for 2 and 3 generations, the box turtles are healthy and breeding, there is not much of a debate/discussion - its hard to argue with success.

I personally believe that adult box turtles fare better outside, and only keep my babies indoors for a year, and then bring them in for the winter for the next two years.

Remember, what works for one person does not always work for another, and there are a many variables to each situation/environment.

Bill G.

Kanuck,
We've chatted at length before, and I'm in agreement with Bill. If it works for you, do it. I consider myself quite handy and have built countless variations of cages and could NEVER get the combo to work right for keeping my box turtles a fraction of as active as they are outdoors. The labor alone turned me off over time. I'm lucky enough to live in a climate that every box turtle species native the the United States can live in outdoors all year round, so I choose to use that to my advantage, and my results have been ridiculously better that way compared to MY results doing it indoors. Not being a novice to boxies, I can only think that the weather and seasons and light level gradients for morning and evening were the things I could not properly reproduce indoors. Rain was a particular problem, long pounding rainstorms and all day misting storms are awesome at getting them going, but I just couldn't do them well inside.

I'm eagerly awaiting you heading into your 5th and 6th years breeding your boxies indoors to see if they start to become less reliable for you, as this is what I've heard from others that kept individual pairs indoors that long. I personally know the activity level changes, and the lower health problems that outdoor living gives for me, but I haven't tried to keep breeding going indoors for more than two years at a time (and mine wouldn't breed indoors with elaborate setups and hibernation in the fridge). If you can figure out a way to keep them breeding longer, you'd be the first person I knew who could. Several folks have kept them alive for decades indoors, so that is definately possible, if much more expensive and difficult than outdoor living.

I hope you have great luck, just as a few years back we were figuring out the details to get reliable breeding going, and sharing what we learned, maybe you can get with those others who have the money, creativity, and time, and share what you have learned about elaborate zoo setups indoors and come up with a system that works well for more people.

I'd dig seeing some photos of your setup. I like elaborate and difficult to build setups that look attractive and mimic nature well.

Great message - I wonder how a misting system would work indoors - now that would be an interesting experiment - anybody out there ever try it? I have seen misting systems for Burmise Browns - out doors.

Bill G.

hehhehehe

DON'T try to make one yourself (*blushing*) unless you really know what you are doing.

They do sell them, but dang are they expensive (hence the soggy mistake project several years ago)

Nathan,

I always enjoy reading your posts, even if i don't always agree with you. You have a great advantage on me as I don't have a whole lot of access to fellow herptoculturists up here. The reptile hobby up here is mostly centered around animals other than turtles as it is extremely difficult to import them legally into the country, although it can be done. With the exchange rate and the minimum order that most dealers that ship to Canada demand, the few orders I've placed ended up running into the 1000 to 2000 dollar range.

You may be right and my reproductive success may well die off in the next couple of years as has those of the people you know. A question for you then, why do you think that is? Reptiles of all kinds, including some species of turtle, have been bred in indoor only setups to multiple generations. What is it that makes a reptile species a candidate for indoor only propogation? We can mimic almost anything that happens in an outdoor enclosure, in an indoor one with one notable exception and that is natural sunlight. Lighting has come a long way in the last decade but maybe not far enough. What are your thoughts? And what conclusions, if any did your friends draw from their experiences.
Thanks for your time
David

Heres a question, are any of your breeding box turtles captive bred? And if they are, maybe breeding wouldn't taper off in a couple of years.

Bill

This is a good point. I have some that I kept from my really big year in '01 that I plan to keep forever (since then I only keep one hatchling a year and previous I kept none). They are probably at least 3-5 years from breeding age (man am I excited about breeding one of them, he (maybe she) is AMAZINGLY colored, putting his father PrettyBoy in a run for the money as he grows).

It may turn out that captive bred animals don't have quite the natural attunement of the wild animals the majority of us are breeding (I know NO ONE breeding captive bred box turtles at this point).

You all would probably be driven nuts by me if you visited my place. I'm a lunatic with the turtles. My wife calls it the "turtle-zen". I have them tattood on my body (I'm waiting for cash to start working a total arm sleeve collage of my favorite species). I can sit for hours in the yard with them. I can look at my pens and see a corner of a shell and name who it is, flabbergasting anyone else who looks. I know who will be up any time I walk outdoors to take a peek, I can tell most of the time who is gravid and how close to laying before palpating... It's just freakish, probably because I really have no life and spend most of my time and money focused them. Luckily my wife loves them too (lucky for me, that is).

Anyway, back to the outdoors/indoors debate... As far as breeding is concerned, I know my cases are anecdotal, but I get a TON of help request emails, and so far, every one who has moved theirs outdoors has seen a massive increase in activity and health and those with pairs have seen reliable breeding. I don't believe it's scientific evidence, but I do believe that knowledge can be gained from it. Heck, my husbandry tactics made leaps and bounds with the onset of internet bulletin boards. I've been in and out of Kingsnake since it's inception and learned imeasurable amounts in that time. I do a lot of my own unscientific expirementation and adjustments all the time and am careful to note what works for me.

I don't doubt that some day we'll know how to keep these guys in a proper indoor environment, even if it's a zoo grade system with moving lights overhead on gears and elaborate plumbing for seasonal systems, etc. Right now, though, when I get asked "how do I keep a box turtle" or "how do I breed a box turtle" all my learning has led me to answer "outside" as the first part of my response.

Love talking to you guys, though.

I am actually breeding a second generation three toed box, 2 easterns and 2 or 3 gulf coast box turtles - all bred by myself 10 to 15 years ago.

They are outside though, because I believe they do better outside, and growth doesn't seem to be as "normal" to me as when they have access to natural sunlight, insects, hibernation, etc.

I also spend countless hours with my turtles/tortoises, morning everyday when I get up, and when I get home from work - just making sure that everyone is ok, has plenty of food/water, etc. My wife likes the turtles, but is not addicted to them like I am. I need to be sensitive to when she thinks I am spending too much time with the turtles/tortoises.

Bill Griffin

I doubt I have direct access to many more turtle people than you do. I've met a few locally, but found them woefully disappointing in their experience, they seem to be banging their heads against the wall in the infancy of their experience. I encourage them to get online (amazing how many herpers AREN'T on the web yet). Most of the herpers I've learned from have been by finding breeders selling things, emailing them, making it clear I have no intention to buy, but am looking to learn. Most of them had long term email contact with me that I learned a lot from.

The two main things that I noticed with breeding were with easterns boxies and N.A. woods (and somewhat with spotteds on the one count).

1) indoors they for some reason slowly petered out with the reliable breeding

2) outdoors in extremely southern climates, the spotteds and woods and the MAJORITY (but not all, I suppose due to their range reaching that far south and some possibly being from there locally) of the eastern boxies not being reliable in the same way, which was attributed to lack of hibernation, and could be corrected with refridgeration.

These guys do this for money (yeah, I laugh at the idea of doing boxies for money, but I they were not their only species).

Personally, I find myself in absolute AWE of the box turtle. Their level of tune-ment to the environment really is amazing. The sense of direction they never seem to lose, their ability to sense weather, their common reactions to all kinds of weather systems and climate changes... I really feel these guys are natures druids. I think there's just something about the intricate mixing of nature they get outdoors that we are missing and unable to provide. It's true we can make a close approximation of nature outdoors, but we can't truly copy it, and I think we are missing some vital detail.

I'd love it if the detail was found, these guys would make AWESOME indoor breeding projects in beautiful planted zoo displays you could build wrapping your livingroom if we could just find that key. I'm not really able to devote the space that I can outdoors to indoor pens, though, so I'm not going to be working at it in THIS house (eventually I will build a custom house and I'll likely build in advanced herping rooms).

Hey, I feel for you and your importation troubles. If you've got the cajones you are more than welcome to stop by any time and pick up animals when I've got extra or when I get multiple hatchlings in a year. It'll be ALL YOU getting them home, I want nothing to do with that, but I certainly won't mind giving a knowledgeable and caring keeper as many of my hatchlings or unpaired animals as he'd like (right now I only have two sub-adult easterns available {male and a female I think}, but eggs are now incubating for three-toeds) I don't sell boxies, so if you are up for a southern adventure, let me know.

Thanks for the kind offer. If I evewr get down to North Carolina I'll look you up. As always, it's been interesting talking with you. Best of luck with your endevors.
David

Looks to me like you need to write or co-write a paper! You are in an ideal position to do so, it would appear.Are you near enough to a university that you could collaborate with someone?
Opportunity may be knocking on your door.
Regards
Stephanie