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Cute thing my pigmy did yesterday

longtang Jun 20, 2003 10:46 AM

Dear all:

I alluded to it yesterday a little bit in another thread, so please bear with me if you have already heard it:

My little pigmy thinks he is the little piggy that could. I started to call him the "Little Piggy that Could". He seems to think his venom kills instantenously . One time he struck a pinky and in no time started to swallow it. Of course the pinky was still wiggling and didn't die until a minute later.

Yesterday was the cutest: I put a previously dead hopper into his cage. Piggy struck it from under his hide box. So, I dropped the hopper. I don't think he realized that the mouse was already dead. Rather, he probably thinks that his venom caused the it to drop dead on contact. He waited no time to start swallowing it. It's like he thinks he has the venom of the caliber of a tai-pan or a gaboon or somehting.

Then to watch the little guy work his jaws around the big prey was also a treat. (about 1.5X his girth).

No real point to the post. Just a happy father relating his cute baby story. He is the little piggy that could.

cheers. Happy hotings.

Signed: Happy Dad.
Images of Hots of mine

Replies (16)

MsTT Jun 20, 2003 01:35 PM

Actually a lot of snakes have a tendency to do what you have described, especially when they are younger. This is definitely not cute when the prey item gets big enough to bite back but the snake is too stupid to figure this out. The result is snake carnage if the keeper is not ready to respond instantly with forceps. A mouse bite is a surprisingly wicked injury and can result in a snake losing an eye or getting a potentially fatal infection to the bone.

A snake you note as having this bad habit should be weaned onto dead prey ASAP. It can get itself into serious trouble later in life if it continues to feed on increasingly larger live prey.

longtang Jun 20, 2003 08:18 PM

Very good point. If piggy starts to swallow while a non-pinky/fuzzy was still wiggle, there is definite risk of injury.
-----------------
A thought ocurred to me as I think about the way I held the hopper with forceps by the scruff of the neck. This hopper was already dead, of course. But what do you think of holding a live hopper by the scruff of the neck and letting the snake envenomate while you hold on to the mouse the entire time with the forceps. If one of the arguments for feeding dead is to avoid injury to snake, then this certainly would achieve that goal.

As far as parasites go, I raise my own mice and clean meticulously and feed very clean/nutritious food.

Also, if one of the often cited arguments against venomoids is that the venom aids in digestion, then isn't what I propose to do helping the snake in pre-digesting the meal? If pre-digestion is the goal, I would think it is best to envenomate a live prey because the heart needs to pump to circulate the digestive enzymes around in the prey's body. Won't do much good for a snake to inject venom if the prey does not have a heart beat to circulate the concoction around.

I don't want to start a whole controversial debate. These are just some thoughts. i am thinking out loud.

sinclerey. tang.

steve h Jun 21, 2003 06:02 AM

Just go ahead and use frozen/thawed. Then there is NO chance for a bite...

I've never had a snake have a digestion problem...so I don't think it truly makes a big difference.

Now you've seen the snake "do it's thing", it's neat, but now it's time to be responsible and feed f/t...

good luck,
Steve

longtang Jun 21, 2003 07:40 AM

Hi Steve:

Because of the way it comes up all the time and because of the shear number of people who are strong advocates for F/T, I have always felt that there was more to the debate than injury and parasites alone. I couldn't put my finger on it, but now I have come to realize that it has to do with people's general feeling of being a responsible herper.

Believe me, you and I have more in common than we have differences. What I mean is that we both want what is best for our snakes. Disagreement or not, we have this common ground from which to start, which allows me to listen without becoming defensive. I always keep that in mind in any debate on this forum. Even in the venomoid debate, both sides are none-the-less filled by people who have a love for snakes.

I certainly appreciate your suggestion that I be a responsible Hotter and start feeding f/t. I want to be responsible. I want to take good care of my beautiful creatures that is really God's creatures. As much as I am fascinated by the uniqueness and the power of the envenomation, it is time to take another look and to do the most responsible thing. At the very least, even if I continue to feed live, to do so in the safest/humanest manner possible.

Thank you very much for taking the time to write. It is a topic definitely worthy of careful consideration. The final verdict, in my case, is not in yet.
---------
As an aside:
The other thing I didn't mention about feeding live is that in a way, it does help to reinforce how much respect you must give to your beautiful creatures. To first hand see what the a bite does to a mouse (with the lightening speed of the strike and the lightning speed of the mouse's demise), it really does drive it home how you must never ever take them lightly. Hots, whether a copperhead/pigmy or Cobra/Gaboon will knock a mammal on its ass, whether that mammal is a mouse or a human hand.

Thank you and be well.

Wish you Many Fruitful Hottings.
Tang.

venom17 Jun 21, 2003 10:20 AM

Pigmy's are probably one of the hardiest of all snakes. I have kept Pig's since I was 13 and Im now 18. Out of all the one's I have had...none has had any problems to live food. I mean in the wild, snakes eat live food...not f/t. Another plus for me is where I get my mice from....I've been using them for years.

Joe

longtang Jun 21, 2003 10:28 AM

I wasn't clear. Where do you get your mice from? Do you raise the mice or do you catch them?

Just curious. You mentioned it as a plus, but you didn't say where you get them from.

I do like what you said about the pigmy. They are neat snakes, aren't they? I just love my pigmy!

cheers.

venom17 Jun 21, 2003 10:35 AM

I just get them from a mouse breeder down here in S. Fl that I have been using for years. Some people do like f/t but some of my snakes will get either. For me, I really have no set preference

Joe

tj Jun 21, 2003 02:23 PM

You said that you've been keeping pigs since you were 13, and that you live in South Florida. My question is, how exactly did you manage to get your Florida hot permit at such a young age? Just curious.

venom17 Jun 21, 2003 10:07 PM

Well TJ..I knew I should of clarified that. What I actually meant was I was helping out with my cousin who had them who is now in 30's. They werent EXACTLY mine but I did help with feedings,cleanings ect.

tj Jun 22, 2003 10:51 AM

Good way to get experience. It always helps to know someone.

steve h Jun 21, 2003 01:32 PM

that's the point...they aren't in the wild, nor is the mouse/rat/ etc... they are generally in an enclosure that is too small anyway... so they (nor the prey) don't behave like they normally would...plus it is foolhardy to think snakes aren't injured, sometimes severly, when they attempt to subdue prey in the wild...esp. ones that bite and hold!!

Steve

steve h Jun 21, 2003 01:16 PM

that's a very civil reply, thank you. no flames were meant on my end...

but be aware (i'm sure you are) that if you continue to feed live your snakes will suffer (more than likely from a bite rather than parasites...in my opinion), you may get away with it for a long time, but it's gonna happen...

if you feed live and try to hold the rodent strategically while the snake bites, it will be just another distraction to you and may end up with the snake coming after you while your semi-distracted...some snakes go into a feeding frenzy when they smell a rodent, and if your busy holding the mouse/rat by the neck with hemos (2') your still setting yourself up to be a dead rat...my black necks would often charge out of their hides when i threw a f/t rat in their cages...they would go right past the rat and come toward me open mouth...

fortunately the cage was long closed because all i had to do was drop the rodent, and the snake would eventually figure out where it was...

good luck,
Steve

longtang Jun 21, 2003 11:54 PM

quote:some snakes go into a feeding frenzy when they smell a rodent, and if your busy holding the mouse/rat by the neck with hemos (2') your still setting yourself up to be a dead rat...my black necks would often charge out of their hides when i threw a f/t rat in their cages...they would go right past the rat and come toward me open mouth...

fortunately the cage was long closed because all i had to do was drop the rodent, and the snake would eventually figure out where it was...

End quote.

oh my! Holly cow! Taht is some intense feeding response. Now if only my ball python would be half as strong in eating. A black neck is a cobra, isn't it?

In all seriousness, Luckily my hots are all still babies and probably will never have that kind of feeding response--being a copperhead and a pigmy. I will, none-the-less stay ahead of the issue of my safety and their safety as they grow older--especially if I ever plan to get other species (which I really doubt I will. . . . unless it is a venomoid [Controversy not intended] Monocle/gaboon/p.Adder). If that means that in the future, I will have to switch to f/t, I am more than willing. But if there is a workable way to feed without compromising safety for me nor the snake, than that is the best of both worlds. It would be kind of like having the cake and munching on it too.

happy hottings!

MsTT Jun 22, 2003 02:01 AM

Sorry, I wrote a nice long reply earlier and then my browser ate it.

As has been pointed out already by other helpful folks, that tactic is called "begging for a bite" unless you have very long forceps. Snakes can get very excited and stimulated during feeding, and sometimes their strikes go wild or they charge forward and aim for the hand rather than the mouse. You can run into the same problem with f/t prey on forceps with some of the really eager eaters, but the stimulus doesn't seem to be as strong with f/t prey. Live prey seems to trigger a whole different set of behavioral responses, and these are not responses you want your hands to be anywhere near.

The typical defensive strike range you have already learned to calculate and avoid is much shorter than the range of a feeding behavior bite. A hungry and highly motivated snake may move rapidly forward to nab whatever it thinks is the target, which will extend its effective split second strike range by a really scary distance that you may not be prepared for. If the snake gets your hand confused with the mouse, that's bad. I've had a few snakes actually swarm right up the forceps past the mouse and go for my hand because they were excited by the mouse smell and my hand was a nice, visible, warm, moving target. I always keep a small hook in my left hand to fend off this sort of thing, but it's a bit of a risky business.

One of the other reasons I like to feed f/t is that I prefer that my snakes don't have powerful, wild feeding reflexes. I like my snakes to move slowly up to the food, calmly open their mouths and take it in a leisurely manner. That way I can reliably feed them off of forceps with minimal risk and fuss, and worry less about violent feeding responses during handling.

I've gotten a number of my LTC animals habituated to the point that I literally place the food directly into their mouths with hemostats. All they have to do is open up. They don't have to do any chasing or even biting because they have gotten used to the idea that their dinner will be delivered into their mouths. This type of behavioral management definitely doesn't work with all snakes, and in fact can be very counterproductive if the animal has a strong enough feeding response to aggressively go after the prey item you are offering. Also you can really put a snake off its food by bumping it on the nose unless you have a very delicate touch. I don't have much trouble feeding my snakes in this manner, but some of the fascinated visitors who have watched this fun trick and asked to try with the next mouse seem to end up scaring the poor snake right off its food.

If you have an eager eater with strong feeding reflexes, it is generally a better idea not to let this snake associate any of the same stimulus you present during handling with food, for the obvious reason that you do not want the animal to come leaping out at you snapping for its dinner the moment you open the cage door. In practice this can be a bit difficult to maintain unless you have a separate food hatch.

I have a black boomslang whose bad table manners I can blame only on myself. It used to be cute and funny to tease feed her when she was little, so I did that. Now that she is approaching 5' her habit of launching out of the cage at me like a fanged mouse seeking missile as soon as I crack the door is somewhat less charming. She is a good tempered and docile snake when she is not actively seeking food. But her out of control feeding reflexes make her a much more dangerous snake than she would be otherwise. When she is offered a mouse on forceps it's not at all uncommon for her to try to swarm right up the forceps past the mouse, wildly snapping and striking at the larger moving target.

Small terrestrial viperids you shouldn't have much of a problem using the tactic you described if you keep the forceps at a near 90 degree angle. I have had small vipers try to climb the feeding forceps rapidly when they were held at a 45 degree angle or less. The problem you will run into is that the mouse may still be able to turn and bite. On the rare occasions I feed live and I see the mouse struggle and try to bite, I interpose a hook into the mouse's mouth and permit it to bite that while aiming to crush its skull with forceps. You can also try for a very tight neck scruff grip with the forceps that allow you to control the head, but this still doesn't guarantee that the snake won't do something stupid and put itself right in front of the rodent's teeth anyhow.

I once saw an indigo snake which had its tongue actually severed by a mouse bite. Pretty sad case; it would not eat on its own. I'd hate to have that happen to any of my animals, so I don't feed a lot of live prey.

Cytotoxic species enjoy the benefits of a more rapid pre-digestion when they envenomate live food, but a warm basking spot probably serves much the same purpose. Not enough studies have been done to definitively assess what a snake might be missing, nutritionally speaking, when it does not envenomate prey. However the anecdotal evidence suggests that as long as the animal is kept at a constant warm temperature, the additional aid to digestion isn't crucial.

rattlerman Jun 22, 2003 01:10 AM

Ok, i used to feed soley live to a few of my snakes. I though the same thing you did. In the wild they would be able to kill and eat it, so why not in a captive enviormnment? I had a gorgeous western diamondback. I gave him a live mouse, and by some off chance before the snake killed the mouse the mouse put a nice bite in him. Well, the bite got infected and the snake died. Now this westen is alot more venomous than a pigmy, or a copperhead. Why take the chance though. They are young now so it would be wise to switch them over. If you have access to live mice, why not use pre killed. THat would be better that live. Just a suggestion, and i do not mean to offend you, but it is better for the snakes. I lost a WDB to live feeding, and all my snakes are now on F/T. And trust me, i have alot!!!

Kris
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DON'T TREAD ON ME

longtang Jun 22, 2003 10:17 PM

Thanks all for you replies. Esp to steve, TT and rattlerman.

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I find this a great group to be and I have read each of your replies and have learned a great deal. These three points have been most poignant: when keeping hots, one must always think: 1. operator safety 2. snake safety. 3 responsible ownership of herps.

let me know if I have missed any.

Again. Thx all. This is a great group!

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