Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Welcome to kingsnake.com's message board system. Here you may share and discuss information with others about your favorite reptile and amphibian related topics such as care and feeding, caging requirements, permits and licenses, and more. Launched in 1997, the kingsnake.com message board system is one of the oldest and largest systems on the internet.

Click here to visit Classifieds
Click for ZooMed
Click for 65% off Shipping with Reptiles 2 You

Article to read

Levine Jun 28, 2004 10:02 PM

http://www.zoocheck.com/programs/exotic/venom/snake.shtml

http://researchmag.asu.edu/articles/snakebite.html

http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/ram/GLOBAL/snakes.htm

I have read a few articles online and have estimated from the different numbers 100,000 people die each year from snakes. Us as americans think snakes kill very few people, maybe 1,000 to 1,500 people are bitten per year, only about 10-15 die each year in the U.S. but in some of the less advanced countries snake bites can kill 7,000 to 10,000 each year. Snake bites are a problem. I don't mean to encourage the spread of a bad reputation but we have to remember how many people die yearly from these animals.

Replies (30)

Sonya Jun 29, 2004 09:10 AM

>>http://www.zoocheck.com/programs/exotic/venom/snake.shtml
>>
>>http://researchmag.asu.edu/articles/snakebite.html
>>
>>http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/ram/GLOBAL/snakes.htm
>>
>>I have read a few articles online and have estimated from the different numbers 100,000 people die each year from snakes. Us as americans think snakes kill very few people, maybe 1,000 to 1,500 people are bitten per year, only about 10-15 die each year in the U.S. but in some of the less advanced countries snake bites can kill 7,000 to 10,000 each year. Snake bites are a problem. I don't mean to encourage the spread of a bad reputation but we have to remember how many people die yearly from these animals.

I guess I am sorta not seeing what your point is. Okay, I guess it is a revelation. But people in these countrys are also still dying from health and education issues, crocodiles, diseases we have largely beaten, starvation. I guess I would want to see the percentages of venomous deaths relating to per capital population etc. Then a list of biggest worldwide killers. At the same time, since most of the folks in those countrys are NOT online is it relevant to the discussions that usually take place on KS and are pertinent to North America. There are other forums for the other parts of the world, I guess I wonder if it is really an issue for them.
-----
Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

Tigergenesis Jun 29, 2004 10:01 AM

A good deal of those deaths in other countries are a result of inadequate medical care, being too far from medical care or many people do not believe in traditional medicine and therefore do not seek it.
-----
Check Out My Albums

1.0 Ball Python "Aragorn"
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"
1.0 Saharan Sand Boa "Frodo"
0.1 Rough-Scale Sand Boa "Arwen"
0.1 California Kingsnake "Gentoo"
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Indigo"
1.0 Snow Corn snake "Chile"

0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer
"Kira"

chrish Jun 29, 2004 11:38 AM

If you really want some interesting insight into snake bite in third world countries, I suggest you pick up a copy of Bill Branch and Stephen Spawl's book "Dangerous Reptiles of Africa". Their chapter on snakebite statistics in western Africa and comparison of those statistics to the rest of the world is fascinating.

On top of that, it is a damn good book about african herps.
-----
Chris Harrison

rearfang Jun 29, 2004 12:03 PM

If you like Stephen Spawls...have you read SUN, SAND AND SNAKES?
Great book about his boyhood years as an African collector.

As to the above...posts. 10-15 people dying each year in the U.S. is way high as an estimation. 1-2 is more accurate due to superior meds and less venomous species.

Keep in mind that the countries with high death tolls also have (besides the reasons allready listed) a high number of Elapid species-Cobras Mambas Tiger snakes, Browns etc...which are much more lethal. The U.S. only has corals (which are not aggressive).

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Levine Jun 29, 2004 05:10 PM

Not per year...some years have had many more and some have many less... I personally do not know the exact number but have taken an estimate from some of the figures I've seen.

Also I am well aware of why people die from snake bites...they just dont have the resources in many cases and in others people either use local medicine or because of religious reasons. Snakes in some countries are seen as a form of punishment from the devil/god...the snake temples in India are one example.

But how they die isnt the real issue it's that they die.... people don't care how they person died from a snake they care that the snake killed the person.

Tigergenesis Jun 29, 2004 06:41 PM

But how they die isnt the real issue it's that they die.... people don't care how they person died from a snake they care that the snake killed the person.

And that's what contributes to the often irrational misconceptions and fears people have towards snakes. They just think snakes are bad because they kill, but it is important to try and educate them further as to why, how, etc these deaths occur so as to get people to learn to have a healthy level of respect for and hopefully interest in conserving these awesome creatures.
-----
Check Out My Albums

1.0 Ball Python "Aragorn"
1.0 Kenyan Sand Boa "Gimli"
1.0 Saharan Sand Boa "Frodo"
0.1 Rough-Scale Sand Boa "Arwen"
0.1 California Kingsnake "Gentoo"
1.0 Mexican Black Kingsnake "Indigo"
1.0 Snow Corn snake "Chile"

0.1 Australian Cattle Dog/Pointer
"Kira"

chrish Jun 29, 2004 06:53 PM

>>Also I am well aware of why people die from snake bites...they just dont have the resources in many cases and in others people either use local medicine or because of religious reasons. Snakes in some countries are seen as a form of punishment from the devil/god...the snake temples in India are one example.

The countries that have the highest incidence of snake bites are the countries that have the highest population involved in non-mechanized agriculture. People get bitten while working in the fields without shoes or any sort of protection.

I believe the highest incidences of snake bite world-wide are in the Ryukyu Island (south of Japan) where one of the Habus bites thousands of people working in the fields each year and western Africa where agricultural workers are bitten by the thousands as well. In western Africa, the reported cases are probably only the tip of the iceberg.

More individuals are bitten in India because there are more people involved, however, I think I remember reading that in these other areas as many as 1 in 4 suffer a snakebite while working in the fields.

As for the snake temples, I believe you are talking about the snake temple in Malasia where Temple Vipers are encouraged to live in the temple. Those vipers are extremely docile and bites are very rare.
-----
Chris Harrison

oldherper Jun 29, 2004 11:22 PM

Yep. I went to one temple in Penang, Malaysia where Trimeresurus wagleri were literally all over the place. The monks there move them around free-handed with impunity...they never seem to even offer to bite. Of course, that bite wouldn't be nearly as life-threatening as some of the other species around there anyway.

Levine Jun 30, 2004 03:11 PM

There are many shrines in India dedicated to the snake god Vasuki. Nagapanchami is a holiday where they celebrate the snake in India and the God. They give food offerings to the local snakes...including cobras...which probably means they are very close to the animal.

Levine Jun 30, 2004 03:18 PM

Oh forgot to add, they let snakes live in these temples....and also isn't it odd that India has massive rat temples...and a snake temple down the street?...just found it humorous. Put a snake temple near a rat temple...

rearfang Jul 03, 2004 02:37 PM

The number of snake bites that occur in the U.S. has increased due to the popularity of reprtile keeping and the expanded population.

According to my old encylopedia Between the fifties and 70's less than one person per year died from snake bite.

While the number of bites has grown, the advancements in treatment reponse time still keeps it below the high average you state. At that rate one person would die each month. As heavily as these are publisized by the media, there would need to be a lot more deaths reported to make up that amount, and that has not been the case.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Levine Jul 03, 2004 03:49 PM

Here are some links...I wish I could give better sources than websites but this is the internet...

http://www.aafp.org/afp/20020401/1367.html

http://www.selfcare.info/hc1/adult/BitesStings/SnakeBite.html

http://www.md4all.com/emergency/CME/linlk.php?node=008.htm

http://www.eamg-med.com/members/encyclopedia/8/8_4/8_4_1.shtml

http://www.priory.com/med/ophitoxaemia.htm

If ya want more just ask.

rearfang Jul 03, 2004 09:03 PM

I saw those links...I also don't see all those news stories about deaths in this country. How many this year? Last year? it's easy to get a general estimate. My own web search had estimates of 0-1....9-14....7-10....5-10...Pretty general. If you want to make an issue of this lets see actual cases.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rearfang Jul 03, 2004 09:07 PM

You also might want to check some of the older books for earlier records. More people in this country are killed by lightening, horses and Bee stings...even cat scratches...

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Levine Jul 04, 2004 03:14 AM

Give me the links to the websites you went to. Also I'm not saying snakes are a BIG problem Im just trying to get people to understand that lots of people around the world die from snake bites. People on these forums dont think it happens as often as it does. And when they do hear about it in the local newspaper they think, "oh it was just some idiot who was too close to a snake they knew nothing about". That in itself is a problem. Whether it be 1 person who dies or 15 or 4 or 9.

rearfang Jul 04, 2004 07:29 AM

Will have to get back to you on that as this is the 4th and my wife is calling me (picnic preps).

A classic example of a snake bite was here in Florida where they made a big hero out of a Cuban who was bitten (as the story grew) as he was protecting first his dog, then his dog and daughter, finally his whole family from the attack of the biggest rattlesnake anyone had seen! (It was a five footer which is normaly not a big EDB in healthy populations...and at that it was a abberant specimen that had no rattles) He was bitten on the arm. interesting that it wasn't the leg.....

He did not die but the point of this is that the news (especially here) broadcasts EVERY near encounter in the US and the amount of deaths doesn't add up to 10-15 a year.

Most of the really serious bites here occur to keepers and collectors so that really effects the legitmacy of the statistics (how many Wild snake bites result in death?)I did hear about a copperhead fatality but there was arguement as whether it was the bite or allergy to anti-venom.

Anyhow....got to run. Have a safe and happy holliday!

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rearfang Jul 04, 2004 07:56 AM

I did take a look at the Center for Disease Control webpage and all they have is a paper from the Palm Beach (Florida) Herp Society that says 15 deaths. The paper also claims 7,000 bites occur per year here. Sounds high don't you think?

Again, why don't we see more news stories? This debate can be settled one way only. That is to come up with actual cases resulting in death to draw a more accurate estimate from. otherwise I think it is a case of everybody copying each other's statistics. You want to convince me...show me hard (not estimated) evidence.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

rearfang Jul 04, 2004 08:46 AM

National Safety Council lists:

Year; Deaths

2000........12
2001.........7

Hard stats seem to be next to impossible. Found no data after 2001.

Frank
-----
"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Levine Jul 04, 2004 01:57 PM

I am having trouble finding anything that resembles a valid statistic.

Also media stories have a way of changing. Remember the guy who "saved" his son from a shark by beating the shark to death? Later we find out he was fishing for sharks and told his kid to jump in to secure the line.

I'll keep looking. Happy 4th to you as well.

oldherper Jun 29, 2004 12:29 PM

I've been to most of the Asian countries where the snakebite numbers seem to be disproportionately high. What I can tell you about that is that the main reason a lot of the snakebites occur is because these folks walk around barefoot in areas where a lot of dangerously venomous snakes cohabitate with people. Another part of it is because the way they do things tends to attract snakes to areas where people live. For instance, they will store large quantities of rice in a shack beside their home. This naturally attracts rats and mice, which in turn attract snakes. In these areas, Asian Cobras (Naja naja kaouthi, N.n.polyocellata, etc.) are very, very common. Another very common species in these areas is the Russell's Viper (Daboia russelli), and these folks walk around all over the place barefoot at night when russelli are active.

The truth of the matter is that when you consider the sheer numbers of people in these areas and the sheer number of snakes, then figure the number of actual human-snake encounters that probably occur every year, the number of actual bites is really surprisingly low. In India, it is estimated that around 100,000 people are bitten every year. About 10,000 (est) actually die. That's one fatality out of 10 people that are envenomated by dangerously venomous animals. That probably represents closer to a million encounters (whether or not the human was actually aware of the encounter). I can remember seeing as many as 8 Cobras and 3 Russell's Vipers in a single day. Of course, I was looking for them, but still, that's how common they are in certain places. Imagine if Eastern Diamondbacks and Western Diamondbacks were that common in towns and around people's houses in the United States.

Another factor that contributes to the 10,000 deaths is the fact that many of the people that are bitten try to use folk remedies instead of going to the hospital for antivenom. With a bite from a russelli, chances are good that it's going to end badly when folk remedies are used. Another factor is that many of these people live quite a distance from a hospital and transportation can be a problem. I don't think there is a shortage of antivenom, in fact it's fairly easy to get antivenom over there...no prescription is needed. The one problem I'm aware of with antivenom in that region is that Daboia antivenom from one region may be ineffective against a bite by a Daboia from another region due to genetic differences in the snakes resulting in large differences in the composition of the venom.

In the United States, nearly every venomous snakebite is treated by a hospital and antivenom is used where indicated. If that were true in these countries, the fatality rate would be much lower.

crtoon83 Jun 29, 2004 08:45 PM

>>Another factor that contributes to the 10,000 deaths is the fact that many of the people that are bitten try to use folk remedies instead of going to the hospital for antivenom

i'm glad someone finally said it. I was reading through all the replies and was amazed nobody got this until now. but a lot of people also breed these venemous snakes, and in doing so they create what they feel to be anti-venom. These are usually the idiots who die.

There are a number of reasons why the death rates in third world countries are so high, one being (note: i'm really tired not sure if someone already said this but her it goes...) the fact that there is so much faith put into spiritual medicene. If you ever read the books "Pecked to death by Ducks", or "Jaguars Ripped my Flesh", you would understand all these superficial beliefs that people have.

For example this one tribe believes that babies are born strictly because of an alignment in the stars, nothing to do with sexual intercourse. one medicene doctor in the tribe said "see that lady over there? Her husband has been gone for the past 9 months on a spiritual quest and she is 6 months pregnant." Ignorance is one of the most dangerous things on this planet, in every case.

When I tell people I have snakes, 90% of them all have the same response. Why do you want something that is going to bite/kill you. You have to understand I live in panama city florida, the redneck riviera. everyone (being stereotypical now) is sitting on the front porch of their trailors in a fraying folding chair, crushed beer cans all around, a cold beer in one hand and a 12 gauge in the other, as soon as he sees a snake screamin "ma! theres a dang blasted snake out there!" she usually replies something like "I dont want cha ta get bitten now ya hear? Our babies due any day now!" ...lol....but seriously its not like that but the ignorance of the people in this town would make you want to think they are all like that.
-----
The reason mainstream thought is thought of as a stream is because it's so shallow. -Unknown

Lucien Jun 30, 2004 01:52 AM

And actually, the people in third world countries are AWARE that the snakes are there but also take the risk of going barefoot in agricultural fields for COMFORT reasons. I believe there was a Jeff Corwin show.. or Marc O'Shea (Can't remember which) about The Russels' Viper and how many people got bitten in the rice patties because of a lack of footwear of any kind. What most of them complained about was a lack of comfort in the shoes or boots to be worn. Now, if thats the case (And it wasn't from non-availability.. the government over there was trying to lower fatalities due to snake bites by providing appropriate footwear) then its these people taking their own lives in their hands. I'd sure in the hell rather have blisters or be uncomfortable than possibly dead from a snakebite by a Russel's Viper or Cobras. These people know the snakes are there.. they've lived with them for thousands of years... The snakes have been there longer than the people have.. Why should the snakes be the ones persecuted? A human life is no less precious than a snake's... I'm sorry.. a life is a life.. we're all just animals... a snake's life should be no less important. If it were killed in a manner fitting the balance of life I would have no problem.. but we don't kill just for food.. or protection. We kill out of hate and THAT is what truly differentiates us from any other animal. They will kill out of fear.. hunger... protecting of territory or offspring.. but we kill for no better reason than ignorance and misunderstanding.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.1.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 2 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice and Mystique))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

oldherper Jun 30, 2004 06:08 AM

Lucien,
I have to take issue with a couple of things you've said. To me (and this is just my opinion), to assign the same value to every animal life as you would to a human life is ludicrous. Have you ever killed a mosquito? or a fly? Or a roach? Those are lives. And, it's simply not true that we are the only animal that kills for reasons other than food. So...I guess the only thing that really separates us from the rest of the animals is the fact that we aren't afraid of vacuum cleaners.

Lucien Jun 30, 2004 06:56 AM

Yes I have killed a Roach.. and spiders.. mosquitos.. they all present a danger of disease or allergic reaction in many people, myself included, having been bitten by a Brown Recluse Spider and now suffer long term effects of said bite including severe allergic reaction to other types of spider bites.. so I count that as self defense... I never said other animals didn't kill for reasons other than food.. because they do... they kill for defense..for territory.. to protect their young and for food. Very rarely do you encounter a healthy animal that kills for no other reason than the enjoyment of it. Housecats are a notable exception. I said humans are the only creatures who kill out of hate...Out of ignorance... We fear the things we don't understand... we come to hate that fear in ourselves and so the things that cause that fear in us are included in that hatred. And the only way to fight our fear and hatred is to lash out at the things that caused those emotions in the first place. A life is a life. If a roach or a spider or mosquito is doing me no harm I leave it in peace. If it presents a viable danger to me or mine I will take steps to see it dead. That is defense of my home.. my territory if you will.. and my family. Though there are times when I will not take that step to kill and simply remove the threat from my area... if it is possible to do so..without increasing the risk. I do believe all life is equai... but all life also has its place in the scheme of things. Take beef cattle.. they are born... bred.. fed well.. given an easy life until its time to slaughter them for their meat. Their purpose is as a food animal regardless of the predator that takes them.. whether it be human.. wolf.. bear.. whatever. Same goes for rats. I always hate hearing the pet rat breeders bemoaning the fact that their "beloved pets" are routinely fed to snakes....and bred for that purpose... and thats exactly what their purpose is... as a vital prey species. Same thing for snake owners... there are some snakes used for both human consumption or consumption by other snakes and I have no problem with this as everything has to eat. What I have a problem with is villifying an animal that is, itself, not malicious. It does NOT hunt people down just to envenomate and kill them. It is not a threat until someone makes it a threat.. IE stepping on it.... not taking the proper cautions to protect themselves against a known threat to their lives. Snakes and other reptiles have existed far longer than the human race...we have no right to say whether they may live or die just because we have the intellect and imagination to dream up new ways to destroy them due to our hatred and ignorance.
-----
Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.1.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 2 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice and Mystique))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

oldherper Jun 30, 2004 07:22 AM

OK...we're pretty much on the same page. I guess I just misunderstood the content of your previous post....

I just have a hard time with some of the extremists I come into cantact with...you know the ones..."Meat is murder", yadayadayada...meanwhile they climb into their Lexus with the LEATHER seats, brush the dirt off their LEATHER shoes, and run down to the local Chick-Fil-A for a chicken sandwich. The vast majority of them a hypocrites of the worst kind. If they find out that you are a hunter (I hunt deer, but I EAT it. I do not believe in trophy hunting), watch out...then you are accused of killing and eating Bambi. I wish they would get a grip...Bambi is a cartoon character. I don't accuse them of eating Foghorn Leghorn when they go to Chick-Fil-A. When they can tell me honestly that they don't use ANY animal products of ANY kind, ever, and never kill an animal of any species whatsoever...then I'll respect their opinion...until then, they don't have anything to say that I'll consider valid or listen to.

MartinWhalin1 Jun 30, 2004 01:49 PM

" When they can tell me honestly that they don't use ANY animal products of ANY kind, ever, and never kill an animal of any species whatsoever...then I'll respect their opinion..."

Oldherper, even then I have a problem respecting their opinion, although I know I should. If it's a health issue, while I don't agree with the logic, I respect their opinion. What I can't stomach, is when they try to make a moral issue out of it. These "vegans" have grown up as some of the richest people in the richest country in the world. They are the only ones that can AFFORD to make a moral issue out of it. Over 95% of humans don't have the time to feel sorry for the animal that had to die to provide them with meat, they have to hurry up and eat it before they STARVE TO DEATH! I choose my own diet the same way I decide on a diet for any one of my pets: by studying their natural history. Humans, historically, have been such an efficient predator that our dispersal over the planet caused almost all of the large predators to die out. We ate such mammoth amounts of mammoths that everything else that was eating it became extinct. Now, of course, we've all heard hippies claim that "our bodies aren't designed to digest meat, man." I usually reply by asking "designed by who?" and "show me the science behind that statement." Genereally they respond by hitting their bong and doing that whirly dance they do.

Like I said, there is no reason why their opinion should bother me so much except for the fact that, their opinion is that I am an immoral murderer. Something that I feel the need to refute.
-----
Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

Sonya Jun 30, 2004 02:03 PM

>> Like I said, there is no reason why their opinion should bother me so much except for the fact that, their opinion is that I am an immoral murderer. Something that I feel the need to refute.
>>-----
>>Martin Whalin

My dh says I should get a T shirt with "Heartless Hypocrite" on the front and "Professional Killer" on the back. I am getting a little tired of being told I am a hypocrite for raising my own reptile food, and selling the extras as pets. And yes, I have some rats as pets. I also had a pet sow and a pet bull....we ate them when they got dangerous. So I guess it fits.
-----
Sonya

Haven't we warned you about tampering with the structure of a chaotic system?
Mrs. Neutron

oldherper Jul 01, 2004 07:23 AM

YOU KILLED PORKY PIG?!?!?!?!???? MURDERER!!!!

oldherper Jun 30, 2004 08:42 PM

I'm right with 'ya, Martin.

MartinWhalin1 Jun 30, 2004 01:34 PM

You bring up a good point about killing snakes. The fact is, if these people didn't want snakes around they would and could kill all of them in their vicinity. I think it's been proven that it's not hard for humans to eradicate an animal such as a snake if we put our mind to it. Like someone said about the food storage practices, these people have a problem with rodents. While not geniuses, they have realised opver the generations that a snake problem is nowhere near the threat to health that a severe rodent problem is. While I still don't see the point of the original post, I think it should be noted that diseases/infections spread or caused by rodents PROBABLY (a guess) kill a lot more people in these areas than snake bites do. Some of these disease/infections are communicable...snake bites are not. Of course, to us, the solution seems obvious; Stop storing large quantities of grain where you live and stop walking around barefoot at night.
-----
Martin Whalin
My Email

Quotes from guys named Carl:

"Science stops at the frontier of logic. Nature does not, she thrives on ground as yet untrodden by theory."
-Carl Jung

"It is foolish to let singleness of purpose deprive one of the joy and delectation of the many wonderful sights and sounds incidental to the quest."
-Carl Kauffeld

Site Tools