Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There have been many questions about the turkey diet. As Jeff LEm mentions below the paper that compares the turkey diet to mice is out now. I downloaded the pdf file and the result appears to indicate Frank was right. There was no advantage over feeding mice, except maybe for cost. In fact to my surprise the turkey diet was a lot higher in fat, while I expected the opposite. It doesn't hurt to have turkeymix in the freezer as a backup or for some variation, but as far as I am concerned it'll never be my main food source.

Ron

you should also add that the cholesterol level was higher in the specimens raised on the strictly rodent diet as opposed to the turkey so in my oppinion while the rodent diet should be fed at a higher percentage than any other there should also be some supplementation of other prey items such as insects and amphibians which i also supports Franks record.
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James Grigsby - " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

May I add this to consider, Cholesterol, in the blood stream, is not only the product of the diet, but the product of what history of the animal concerned.

For instance, a monitor multiclutching will have a different cholesterol level then a non-breeding female, when both were fed the same diet. Or a fact growing montior to a slow growing monitor.

Or its even effected by temps. With the old, rodents kill savs wifestail. If the monitors metabolism is low, and it cannot use the energy, its stored as fat. That should not be compared to an active monitor that burns up the fat thru, activity, growth or reproduction. So, yes as rich diet can be delerious to a non active monitor, as a lean diet can be delerious to an active productive monitor.

What is so upsetting to me is, so many of you want to "understand" something by talking about it, when its not about talk.

ITs like a certain type or brand of fuel for your car, run a few tanks and see which performs best, then pick what works the best for performance and budget. Why not just run the monitors and see for yourself?

What I am saying is, your animals are not mine or the zoos, so what is their requirement? What does it take to meet the performance of yours in your conditions, thats what is important. To know that, you have to see for yourself, because its surely not on paper. Cheers FR

that was simple and straight to the point and makes more sense to ME than that paper. Monitors are individuals and everyones raises and house them differently. Different set ups and environments allow for different activity levels which tell me that one diet fits all is not the right approach or should i say how OFTEN and how MUCH individuals are fed are based strictly on the activity level and how fast that individual burns its foods. IF this is true, isn't it also true that what we've been told as far as feeding everyday the first year and 2-3 days a week thereafter is not a correct assessment for all individuals? OR is this just a basis to start from and people need to watch their animals and judge for themselves? Im sure whether im way off here or am right on that what ever your answers are that someone somewhere will be helped in some way by your reply and that is all that matters to me, getting you monitor geeks(no pun i learn alot) or experts as some label you to share your knowledge.

Cheers to you
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James Grigsby - " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

You answered your own question and I what I think is the main key to raising any animal properly. Observe your animals and let them tell you what they need. A very simple "for instance" would be my two dogs, both adopted last year. One is now roughly 15 months, is a spayed female and weighs in at around 50#. The other is approx. 2.5 years old, neutered male and weighs in at around 85#. Guess what, they both get the same amount of food and both maintain a very athletic and healthy-looking profile. You would assume that the big male would eat double what my little girl eats, and that's just what we did (we adopted him as a 1.5 year old adult) and found that he just got overweight and had recurring bouts of diarrhea when that amount of food was fed. So we cut him back and he is now perfect. Same with reptiles, watch them, get to know them and their personalities, habits, preferences, routines then take what you have come to know as a MODEL/IDEAL for a healthy monitor and taylor your feeding, heating, lighting, substrate choice, etc (remember, you are now Mother Nature to your monitors) to achieve that model/ideal in your particular animal. Every animal is different and may require slightly different conditions or feeding schedules so anything with regards to a feeding schedule or regimen is just a guideline or baseline. Start there, see how your animal does on it and then adjust as necessary. Another "for instance" with my two waters. They are now at about the 10-12 month old mark and have been eating daily and usually finishing everything offered (took some time to find out what their limit was). But now it seems their metabolisms have been slowing a little so I have begun to cut their feedings back to 5-6 days per week to see how they react to that. They also are not the types to overeat and if full, will leave food in the bowl. I'm sure that once I have that figured out, they will change up on me again (they have a habit of doing that on a regular basis!) and I will have to adjust once again. The cycle continues, and the bottom line is learn to read your animals intimately. I think so many new people in this hobby (especially monitors and boids) want to just put their animals on a schedule and leave it at that, but it's just not that simple, and I feel that having to THINK about your animals constantly and make those adjustments as you read them/listen to them is one of the most fun and challenging aspects of keeping any reptile. Best of luck! Billy

>>that was simple and straight to the point and makes more sense to ME than that paper. Monitors are individuals and everyones raises and house them differently. Different set ups and environments allow for different activity levels which tell me that one diet fits all is not the right approach or should i say how OFTEN and how MUCH individuals are fed are based strictly on the activity level and how fast that individual burns its foods. IF this is true, isn't it also true that what we've been told as far as feeding everyday the first year and 2-3 days a week thereafter is not a correct assessment for all individuals? OR is this just a basis to start from and people need to watch their animals and judge for themselves? Im sure whether im way off here or am right on that what ever your answers are that someone somewhere will be helped in some way by your reply and that is all that matters to me, getting you monitor geeks(no pun i learn alot) or experts as some label you to share your knowledge.
>>
>>Cheers to you
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>>James Grigsby - " When you try of all your forces to make your own way, you will help some of others and will be helped by others. As long as you do not make your own way, you cannot help anybody, and nobody can help you. " (Shunryu Suzuki)

A couple of things, First, I did not have a question to answer, you said, you answered your own question I have been saying this very thing for over a decade. Watch your animals. That is not my question, its my recomended direction to take.

The confusion occurs when someone asks a direct question. I can only truefully answer a direct question with a direct answer. Like, Frank, how do you do this or that I will answer, I did or observed this. I do not taylor the answer, to fit what the person asking wants to hear, or to fit what is popular, at the time. I simply answer the direct question. How people deal with that has/is very interesting. So, if someone asks, what did that lacie do? I respond with, that lacie did X and ate Y to support it. That does not mean that I think that, X or that Y, is the best or ideal or anything, its simply the answer to your question.

About your dogs, there is one giant difference, monitors are reptiles, not mammals. They do not create a constant metbolism. They are also very cyclic. That is, they have periods of different activity. This means, there is no set amount of food or diet for monitors. Because theres no standard set of cages and conditions for monitors.

How that relates to monitors is simple, they do not have a consistant level of energy consumption. They vary consumption with need. That leads me to question anyone who feeds on a schedule, like once a week or twice a week or 6-7 times a week. None of those can be right, the reason is, these are reptiles. They feed heavily for periods and litely or not at all for periods.

So, before you can understand, diet and feeding, you first have to understand, these are reptiles and what reptiles are. I do think thats often overlooked here on this forum. I think its overlooked by both beginers and advanced keepers(and biologist). I hope this makes sense to you. FR

>>A couple of things, First, I did not have a question to answer, you said, you answered your own question I have been saying this very thing for over a decade. Watch your animals. That is not my question, its my recomended direction to take.
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>> The confusion occurs when someone asks a direct question. I can only truefully answer a direct question with a direct answer. Like, Frank, how do you do this or that I will answer, I did or observed this. I do not taylor the answer, to fit what the person asking wants to hear, or to fit what is popular, at the time. I simply answer the direct question. How people deal with that has/is very interesting. So, if someone asks, what did that lacie do? I respond with, that lacie did X and ate Y to support it. That does not mean that I think that, X or that Y, is the best or ideal or anything, its simply the answer to your question.
>>
>> About your dogs, there is one giant difference, monitors are reptiles, not mammals. They do not create a constant metbolism. They are also very cyclic. That is, they have periods of different activity. This means, there is no set amount of food or diet for monitors. Because theres no standard set of cages and conditions for monitors.
>>
>> How that relates to monitors is simple, they do not have a consistant level of energy consumption. They vary consumption with need. That leads me to question anyone who feeds on a schedule, like once a week or twice a week or 6-7 times a week. None of those can be right, the reason is, these are reptiles. They feed heavily for periods and litely or not at all for periods.
>>
>> So, before you can understand, diet and feeding, you first have to understand, these are reptiles and what reptiles are. I do think thats often overlooked here on this forum. I think its overlooked by both beginers and advanced keepers(and biologist). I hope this makes sense to you. FR

And I did such a good job too. Oh well, old age has already set in.(and on), Sorry FR

>>And I did such a good job too. Oh well, old age has already set in.(and on), Sorry FR

If I was raising a large number of monitors, I would stick with rodents supplimented with the turkey diet.
However, with just a few, say 1-6 animals I vary the diet considerably. Turkey, eggs, balut, crayfish, chicken and rodents are all offered. I just like to offer a variety, I believe it's better for the animal. Whether or not it really makes a difference can be debated till the cows come home, but it's what I do. If nothing else it makes me feel better.

Cheers
Jim

All very good responses. The question was never who was right - it was testing whether turkey diet is safe for monitors in the long run, and the answer is yes. Although in the paper I state it should be rotated into a diet of mice and other things. Frank is dead on in the cholesterol aspects, and I discuss much of what he said in the paper. Why was cholesterol higher in the rodent group when they all had good heat, excercise, body weight, etc? We don't know, but many of the animals were cycling or laid eggs and that is probably the main cause, although the male rodent eaters had higher cholesterol levels than the turkey males - who knows? The numbers on the diets (in terms of vitamins, minerals, etc) are very similar; in fact very little significant differences between the two diets as shown.

Jeff IV studied the effects of red meat on monitors; it increases cholesterol and often leads to cataracts, liver and kidney disease, I believe rodents are red meat? And if fed on animals protein rather then greens and whole grains, they should be even more harmful.
My 2cents

I'd still love to read this paper for myself rather than relying on other people's opinions but so far I can't get to it....
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Lucien

1.1 Columbian Redtail Boa (BCI)(Sutekh and Isis)
2.1.2 Leopard geckos (2 Blizzards (Caine and Goliath), 1 Tangerine Albino (Tequila Sunrise ...Tiki for short) and 2 dbl. het blizzard x tang albino (Malice and Mystique))
0.1 Savannah Monitor (Kiros)
13 rats
1 Gerbil
2 Dogs (Loki and Storm)
2 cats (Sahara and Hercules)

I don't have reprints yet - libraries (univ, etc) should have it