Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm so upset...
I begged and waited for this snake. Finally sent my $175 to the business and this is what I got:

I contacted the seller and all I got was a " sorry no live arrival garuantee, get pissed at the shipper not us "... these a-holes have my money and all I have is a stiff dead snake...

The opinions I need are on the shipping conditions.
When the delievery person showed up with a 9" long box, 6" deep, and only 3" high my responce was " there's a 6 foot long beauty snake in that?!?! "
I opened the teeny box to find a snake bag (9" wide and 19" long) that held a severly cramped dead beauty snake. No styrofoam, no padding of any kind, no shredded newspaper or ANYTHING.
I've shipped TONS of snakes before and NEVER sent them like this!!! When confronted the seller said " don't blame this on the shipping conditions, they were perfect, I had air holes all in it ".....

does that sound right to you?!?! in my very pissed off opinion right now that sounds HORRIBLE! I thought it before I even noticed the dead snake.
Please respond, I need advice of others!!!

I think the snake was improperly shipped. It's standard to use a styrofoam box inside a cardboard box with the snake in a container and padding like newspaper in the styrofoam box. Also the shipper should check the weather in his area and yours and add hot or cold packs as nessescary. Air holes are not that important, the boxes are not airtight and they won't be helpful at all if the box is left out in the sun for any lenght of time.

I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.

Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.

Be Blessed all!
Ray Hunter

I am glad to see that things have been resolved.
I think you have done the right thing.
In the long run it can only be beneficial to you and your business.
I have seen your company and your name mentioned with praise and it would be a shame to let one problem ruin that.
I do hope you look at your packaging whether you use Airborne or any other carrier.
Anyway "cudos" to you for standing up and resolving the issue.
good job!
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Jimmy (draybar)

I've also shipped many snakes over the time I've been in this hobby and I would have been very upset to see the conditions in which this animal was sent. Styrofoam boxes are a necessity when shipping animals at any time of the year. Who knows what the weather conditions will be once the package leaves your door. I think you have a legitimate case with this business. Now let's see what they do to make it up to you? Sorry again to hear of your loss....

----glenn n nancy

If I were you I'd raise hell with that guy. Those were not approriate shipping conditions, so demand your money back. You should threaten to spread the word about him, and if he doesn't give you your money back, you should go out of your way to tell the online herping community (especially here at kingsnake) that he does NOT ship his animals properly and that he will NOT take responsibility for his own actions. Be sure not to exaggerate, just tell everyone exactly what he did. A damaged reputation is very bad for business.
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-Andy

If I were you I'd raise hell with that guy. Those were not approriate shipping conditions, so demand your money back. You should threaten to spread the word about him, and if he doesn't give you your money back, you should go out of your way to tell the online herping community (especially here at kingsnake) that he does NOT ship his animals properly and that he will NOT take responsibility for his own actions. Be sure not to exaggerate, just tell everyone exactly what he did. A damaged reputation is very bad for business.

Also, I would like to know who this guy is so I don't order from him?
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-Andy

First, I'm very sorry to hear about your situation. I ship snakes myself, and while I by no means use roomy enclosures, that box was small! I'd track the transport route and see what the weather conditions were at each stop. Most shippers do that BEFORE sending out an animal. Secondly, was there enough room for the bag to jar around? Shipping is always tough, but I've never sent or received anything without some sort of padding. I don't expect the shipping company to add hot/cold packs (maybe Airborne Express does), I do it myself if the conditions neccesitate it. If it were me sending out that animal, I'd refund your money. I really hope this seller does.

I hate to dissagree with everyone but i have been shipping snakes for over 30 years and most do not know how to ship a snake properly.
First a snake should be packed tight so there will be no movement in the box. This means a large or small box makes no difference.Packing a snake tight also reduces any stress and jarring when the box is dropped.
Second the type of box the snake was sent in and the way it was packed is entirely up to the shipper and also HIS RESPONSIBILITY TO GET THE SNAKE TO YOU ALIVE. It makes no difference if the shipping company killed the smake due to heat or crushing the box. It is the sellers responsibility.
I am sure there are lots of folks who would like to know who this seller is and hear his side. Have you shown him the pics you posted here? How long has it been since you recived the snake? Did you wait or did you contact the seller immediatly? There is another popular reptile site (one I can not mention here) that deals with these types of problems.
If you know what site I am reffering to go there and post. If you do not know then you can email me at: Bluerosy@attbi.com

I am not trying to be negative or arguementative. If everythibng you say is true then I would like to see this person hang as much as anyone else. There are proper channels to go through and you should use them.

The shipping is clearly inadequate, particularly the lack of a styro-lined box. But the unfortunate hard truth is that the seller is only obligated to refund your money if he or she has a live arrival guarantee. Should he refund it? Yes. Is that the right thing to do even in the absence of an explicit guarantee? Yes. Does he or she have to? No. The moral is never buy from someone who doesn't have a live arrival guarantee.

I'm really sorry for your loss and for the snake. How awful.

I totally agree with Andy's sentiment above that you should make sure people know about this seller's poor business practices. You may or may not get your money, but you can and should definitely prevent others from buying from him.

I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.

Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.

Be Blessed all!
Ray Hunter

I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.

Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.

Be Blessed all!
Ray Hunter

>>You should be pissed.
They definitely owe you your $175.00.
As already pointed out, there should have been styrofoam lining the inside of the box.
I agree with Andy, contact the company/individual and demand your money back. If they refuse just point out the simple fact that you are a member of Kingsnake.com and that with one key stroke you could inform thousands of people of their disdain for their animals and their customers.
Also explain that once the information hits the internet it can and will hit the show circuit too. In other words they could easily lose all business.
MHO
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Jimmy (draybar)

I personally think the person/company that sent the snake needs to be exposed, regardless if they refund the money (I know this attitude doesn't help get the money returned...something that sounds like will not happen anyway). First, I agree with the others that someone with shady business practices is not needed in our community. Second, someone needs to stop this person from engaging in shipping practices that KILLS snakes, for the sake of the animals. Just my two cents here.

>>I personally think the person/company that sent the snake needs to be exposed, regardless if they refund the money (I know this attitude doesn't help get the money returned...something that sounds like will not happen anyway). First, I agree with the others that someone with shady business practices is not needed in our community. Second, someone needs to stop this person from engaging in shipping practices that KILLS snakes, for the sake of the animals. Just my two cents here.

I think we should all know who it was so we don't have the same thing happen.
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Jimmy (draybar)

My heart goes out to you, and to that beautiful creature that lost its life. I have never shipped live animals, and have only received one shipment of a live animal. When I purchased my ratsnakes last August, the place I bought them from refused to ship them until the outside temperature was below 90, and then they placed a cold pack in a package that was very well protected. They also explained to me that they followed this practice for the well being of the snake. It really impressed me that they cared so much about these little guys.
I also agree with the other posts. You should provide a public and objective account of what happened and let the pure facts be the judge and jury for this company who obviously cares more about the almighty dollar than a life.
Once again I am very sorry for your loss.
Scott

for a minute. This person has no business owning a snake; let alone selling and shipping one. My opinion based soley on input from your side of the story. Now let's look at the deal and money. There's a place on kingsnake.com that gives you direction and information with what choices and options you have and can do. It's the "Complaint/Ripped Off" window when you go to the classifieds. It's under the "Forgot your password" window on the left side. If you bought it over the internet; there's recourse for fraud; sent it through the mail or a carrier; there's recourse for fraud.

If you haven't done it, you should tell the person you paid the money to and shipped the snake that you have done this post. This isn't the bash forum. The person should be given the opportunity to know you did this post so they can have a chance to respond before we go to far. A person that won't deny or respond to allegations when they read them and know them, leads us to believe your inforamtion is accurate. A person that doesn't deny or respond to allegations they don't know have been made has not been given a fair chance and that is what we are dealing with is a fair deal.

Sorry a snake lost it's life to possibly expose this and sorry for what has happened to you. This type of wrong dealing is and ahould not be tolerated. I know you love beauty snakes, I saw several of your posts when other people posted pics of beauties. I can't really put a price on your hurt and disappointment, not even taking into account opening a package to a dead really nice Taiwan beauty. I'm not breeding my Taiwans until next season, but I'll send you a pair of offspring if you'd like so you'll have beauties next year anyway.

Terry Parks

>>I'm so upset...
>>I begged and waited for this snake. Finally sent my $175 to the business and this is what I got:
>>
>>
>>I contacted the seller and all I got was a " sorry no live arrival garuantee, get pissed at the shipper not us "... these a-holes have my money and all I have is a stiff dead snake...
>>
>>The opinions I need are on the shipping conditions.
>>When the delievery person showed up with a 9" long box, 6" deep, and only 3" high my responce was " there's a 6 foot long beauty snake in that?!?! "
>>I opened the teeny box to find a snake bag (9" wide and 19" long) that held a severly cramped dead beauty snake. No styrofoam, no padding of any kind, no shredded newspaper or ANYTHING.
>>I've shipped TONS of snakes before and NEVER sent them like this!!! When confronted the seller said " don't blame this on the shipping conditions, they were perfect, I had air holes all in it ".....
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>does that sound right to you?!?! in my very pissed off opinion right now that sounds HORRIBLE! I thought it before I even noticed the dead snake.
>>Please respond, I need advice of others!!!
>>

If the shipper did not guarantee live arrival, this should have given you pause. I use 3/4" styro boxes and have never had a problem. Every responsible breeder puts the health of his animals first............nuff said!

Charlotte, I'm extremely sorry about your loss. This is one of the reasons I'm so apprehensive about shipping and receiving shipments. This strand shows how important the shipping end of our hobby is. Unfortunately, there is no great method of shipping, and with many airlines and other companies refusing to ship reptiles, or making the effort really difficult, I think many are grasping at finding a good way to do it. There's also the folks that are in it for the bucks, and don't respect the snakes or the customer nearly enough.

I don't ship very often, maybe a few times a year, but I always worry about the conditions. It's not always easy to know about the best conditions either. Sometimes people don't like waiting too long for their snake/snakes (laugh it up TP), but I do worry about the weather, etc. I also sometimes make someone wait quite awhile before shipping to me on that rare occasion. I've even managed to piss a few people off, much to my regret. But it isn't easy finding the right conditions and/or the right person to send to you.

I've managed to not lose any snakes in shipments, so far. My problems have been with finding a shipper that's willing to deal with live reptiles. But I can readily understand why there can be problems. We should make every effort to educate the forum participants of the best methods of shipping and receiving.

All that said, I haven't much respect for the methods of the person you did business with. I don't even want to know who it is. Small time, unacknowledged hobbyists, aren't exactly the people I want to do business with, and yet, at the same time, that's kind of what I am. I guess you have to try to show people somehow that you are sincere and care about what you do. That is possible with forums like this one. Also, you should try to learn as much as you can about the person you're doing the transaction with. If they're not trustworthy, they never get my business again.

I don't approve of the boxing of the snake shipped to you, or the attitude of the person sending the snake. That person should be bending over backwards making sure you are a happy customer. Like someone said, reputations can be hurt severely by not caring about customer satisfaction. Maybe that's partly why people don't stay in the hobby too long, if all they care about is the money. But, a hard lesson is learned, that some dealers are just that---dealers.

I hope you get another snake or your money back. Tell the seller to look at this strand, Charlotte.
Sorry, for being so long winded. It's my nature and I can't help it. Hope it wasn't too boring. Later...TC.

Charlotte, I agree with a previous post that you should notify your vendor about this thread and wait a couple of days to see if your vendor presents an opposing viewpoint.

You should then post the name of the vendor with either an expression of his refusal to refund or one of cursory thanks for changing their mind. In either case, you would serve our community letting us make up our own minds regarding the wisdom of buying from this vendor.
MYEXOTIX

I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.

Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.

Be Blessed all!
Ray Hunter

Good response, Rick. I respect that. I'm glad you're making even with Charlotte. Good luck in the future and with finding a reliable shipper. Let us know what happens if you can. TC.

I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.

Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.

Be Blessed all!
Ray Hunter

on your post that you have addressed correcting one and have learned from it. Two things that I look at concerning mistakes. You're demonstrating good personal and business ethics and I don't see or have any bad issues concerning you. It's hard enough to say I made a mistake to one person, let alone post it on this forum. Well done Ray. Good luck.

>>I have reached an agreement with the customer. It is up to her to post our arrangement if she chooses to do so, but after speaking with her today, I believe she will report to you all that this issue is over. Thank you all for your good advice. We WILL be changing our policy on shipping (to include not using Airborne Express for snakes). Mrs. Johnson spoke to Airborne who told her that there is no guarantee that they can keep a package from sitting out in the sun or overheating (or something to that effect). I have learned a valuable lesson through this, and will act accordingly. This was never about saving shipping costs (as some of you are implying) as the customer pays shipping, not me. I honestly believe a better packing may have mad the difference, but I do not really know for sure. As Wayne stated, it is speculation that the snake died from the packing, not factal. Unlike some, I can not play God and pass judgement. I will make good on the deal regardless of how or why it died. Remember, NOBODY is perfect, we ALL make mistakes. The key is to learn from our mistakes. I cared a great deal for that snake, and would never knowingly do anything to harm an animal. In any event, I don't dwell on the past, I learn a lesson and move on. I am making this right with my customer, and if she decides to post that, maybe some of you can rise above this and move on also.
>>
>>Mrs Johnson and I are putting this behind us and moving on. If some of you are not willing (or able) to do the same, than have a good time. I will have nothing more to add to this issue.
>>
>>Be Blessed all!
>>Ray Hunter