Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was picking up cages at LLLreptile and checking out the stock of mangroves they had yesterday. They showed me the two mangroves and said that they werent for sale. They were huge! They must have been six feet, they usually sell them under four foot. She had them out on a hook and they werent really moving much. The reason they werent for sale was because they hadnt eaten yet since they got them (WC). They said these two werent adapting to captivity and may be sick or parasitic. This was why they werent selling them. After we spent some good money on cages for my home collection, they went ahead and offered me the snakes for free! I couldnt believe it, but I also couldnt accept. I didnt want to deal with snakes that hadnt yet eaten for people with much more experience than I have. I would have also needed to buy more cages as I have no arboreal setups, and I could not have fit any more cages into the car. One of the snakes was also white and black, and I only want yellow and black mangroves. Im going to wait until the next show and hopefully pick up a nice pair that has eaten already, it shall be more worth the money.

The first thing to remember is....When a shop offers an animal for free they are trying to dump it off. That means that the wholesaler would not take it back. Their options are to give it away or kill them rather than deal with animals taking up sales space.

Next time...Take the snakes. You can get good advice on assist feeding here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Since they are wild caught imports, I think the wholesaler has more of a no garantee thing. They get them in every so often, so maybe they even get them. I dont think Im ready to assist feed a venomous snake. I dont think they will breed like that either. Id like to get smaller ones to start with too, that way I can maximize the number of years the pair breeds, as Im sure those large ones have breed for some time, causing me to miss past breeding seasons.

Tube feeding Boigas works really really well. When we were doing our intensive research on their venom, and had literally hundreds of them come through, we tube fed all of them since we were on a tight milking schedule and had to gaurantee every animal was in good health. Boigas are very tough and bounce back remarkably quickly. My recommendation would be to go back to the store, get the animals.

To tube feed, get a can of the very high quality canned diet used for big cats and other carnivores. Its a complete meal in itself. Add an equal volume of water and a bit of nutrical (the glucouse solution, about an eighth of a tube per cans worth), blend on high speed for ten minutes. Then use a fine mesh spaghetti strainer and strain repeatedly. Use a catheter tube lubricated with a bit of KY jelly and put that about ~1/4 the length of the snake down the throat (visually make sure you don't go down the trachea). For a two meter animal, we would give 30 cc worth of solution. For the snakes of the size you have been offfered, I would suggest about 15 ml of solution. Take the remainder, put into 50 ml tubes and freeze. That way you only defrost what you need at any given time, multiple defrosting/refreezing is not a good idea. To defrost, just put the tube into a bowl of warm (not hot) water. Make sure the solution is around room temperature before you give it to goldilocks (ie not too hot or too cold).

To safely handle the snakes, long sleeve shirt and gardening gloves would do just fine.

Best of luck and don't hesitate to post if you have more Qs.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
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Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
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http://www.venomdoc.com

Thanks but I think Im going to wait until the new shipment comes in and get my hands on some healthier animals. They also had one black and yellow, the other black and white. I dont like the black and white. I dont know the sexes either, so I may not have been able to breed them. The ones they sell are usually smaller, and Im going to be sure to get 1.1 of the yellow and black, and healthier. When she took them out, they werent even tongue flicking. They may have been fatally ill from the shipping or parasites. If they had not eaten in a while, they may end up regurgitating any food I give them and still die. Id rather start off with a better pair.

Something to keep in mind.......

Do you know anybody who would be willing to work with those animals? They really need to get out of that shop and into someones hands before they die. I would gladly walk into that shop and remove them just to rescue them. I'd say pick them up and ship them to me at my cost except I doubt they would survive the trip (I'm in south Florida).

This kind of goes beyond what you like...and more into doing the right thing. I would strongly suggest that you check your friends (or local Zoo)and see if one of them is wiling to try. Then I would walk into the store and take the gift.

I have done hundreds of such rescues through the years and turned most of them over to Zoo's or other hobbiests after they had improved. It is another part of responsible reptile keeping.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

You're right Frank...I would have taken them too BUT for someone that doesn't have experience with this, I can understand how it would seem really overwhelming. I'm pretty resourceful but it didn't even cross my mind to call the zoo. That's a great idea!

Rearfang...

If you can set it up... I will gladly pay the shipping and get these snakes sent to you. Just email me scottgoodwin@bellsouth.net for my phone number. I would be happy to get these sent your way... I plan on getting a pair of these later myself, but I am in the process of building a shop to house all my snakes and just dont have room at the moment.

Scott

Will be contacting you Scott (if it hasn't gotten to you already).

I do feel I should point out that these snakes are being considered for placement under the Lacey Act and may soon be unavailable. I am allready cleared for possesion with Fish and Game, so they will be safe here.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

What does that mean? They cant be shipped, or they cant be kept? I wanted to breed them and sell the babies, would I not be albe to do so if they pass it? Or would I be able to sell locally only? I know little about the act.

The proposal was placed with the Dept. Of the Interior by a group that calls it self The N. A. Brown Tree Snake group. It is their claim that ALL Boiga Species are too similar to B. irregularis (which is allready listed)to differenciate and the whole genus (and any similar snakes) should be entered into the Lacey Act.

Responses to their petition were accepted till last November. There has been no ruling yet that I have been able to Find.

Animals listed under the Lacey Act cannot be imported, transported across state lines, bought/sold or even owned (unless purchased before admission to the list).

In other words...If you don't own one before (if) it becomes law...Then you Never can.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

Do you know where I can get info on what other species are listed? I didnt realize this was true, I knew of CITES which is similar except that you can get a permit to keep them. Can you get a permit for this act?

Id better get my pair quick. Im hoping for the September show.

As I said. Once an animal falls subject to that legislation, you cannot own one...unless you can prove you got it before it became law. Then you are saved by the Granddaddy clause.

Try pulling up The Lacey Act
also The Dept of the Interior: Pending Legislation.

What happened to the two Mangroves? I Emailed you about these. Are they still alive and can they survive shipment to Florida? We need to know where they are and if they still can be rescued. Is the store still looking to unload these?

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."