Reptile & Amphibian Forums

GA researchers are wondering how early they may breed in the wild.

The stats on the wild snakes as far as growth are really staggering. They seem to be growing and maturing as fast or FASTER in the wild than they are in captivity.

I would have never dreamed that. These animals must be eating machines in the wild. I was just told a story of one female who was in an armadillo hole when tracked (via radio-transmitter) and as they drew closer…she actually came OUT of the burrow (I think she had to know they were coming too, but had more important things on her mind) because there was a racer outside the burrow that she became acutely aware of. She came out and grabbed the racer as the researchers watched!

It was described as a violent and event with “lots of blood”.
She ate the racer while watching the people that were watching her!

Anyway…I’m betting they actually mature and breed faster in the wild than in captivity…and smaller snakes may have better muscle tone than the captives that get no exercise to speak of.

What’s the youngest you’ve ever heard of a successful mating?
I have heard that Robert Seib has bred them as young as 18 months, but I’m not sure how that went.

Anyone else know of anyone who bred them very young and how it went?

My personal feeling has been that "powerfeeding" young indigos isn't really a risk. Unlike boas or pythons that are fed way more in captivity than the wild counterparts would, an indigos head doesn't appear "shrunken", or it's body appear fat, if fed as much as it will eat when it is young.

I think the real risk is heavily feeding an adult.

A freind of mine got a healthy clutch from a 2 year old.

Doug T

>>GA researchers are wondering how early they may breed in the wild.
>>
>>The stats on the wild snakes as far as growth are really staggering. They seem to be growing and maturing as fast or FASTER in the wild than they are in captivity.
>>
>>I would have never dreamed that. These animals must be eating machines in the wild. I was just told a story of one female who was in an armadillo hole when tracked (via radio-transmitter) and as they drew closer…she actually came OUT of the burrow (I think she had to know they were coming too, but had more important things on her mind) because there was a racer outside the burrow that she became acutely aware of. She came out and grabbed the racer as the researchers watched!
>>
>>It was described as a violent and event with “lots of blood”.
>>She ate the racer while watching the people that were watching her!
>>
>>Anyway…I’m betting they actually mature and breed faster in the wild than in captivity…and smaller snakes may have better muscle tone than the captives that get no exercise to speak of.
>>
>>What’s the youngest you’ve ever heard of a successful mating?
>>I have heard that Robert Seib has bred them as young as 18 months, but I’m not sure how that went.
>>
>>Anyone else know of anyone who bred them very young and how it went?

I've raised a male Eastern from last year. Mullet Fingers has extreme red that's reduced in extent somewhat from hatching, but has become more vibrant. At twelve months he is just over 4 ft. length and now taking 2 small rats every 4 - 5 days. He's not obese. It's interesting that his sister at the same age is just 3 ft. length and taking one small rat/meal. I'm considering breeding him back to his mother this November to bring out any possible recessive traights related to coloration. I can think of a few reasons why this is a bad idea, but would like to hear from others. Thanks.

I hate to attempt to influence people in their breeding efforts. I don't fancy morphs, and I'm not too crazy about the genetic consequences to the animals of backbreeding and solidifying desireable traits that way, but I hate meddling with people's collections. These are their collections, and I'd quietly resent it if anyone tried to tell me how to manage my breeding program, but....you did ask for input.

With apologies, then....I am afraid I would be challenged to support the deiberate inbreeding of a Federally listed Endangered Species for any intended result other than the benefit of the species. Specifically regarding Indigos, the captive gene pool is already kind of limited, perhaps perilously so. I myself would bust a garter (the hosiery, not the snake) to ensure the best outcross I could achieve in any and every Eastern Indigo breeding. There is the whole future-of-the-captive-population thing. Seeking to solidify a desireable color phase seems to me to lack the weight I personally would need to persuade me to inbreed Indigos.

I hope that this reply serves merely to offer thoughts that may not have occurred to you, and is welcome in that vein. Animals in your care are yours, and the final judgement of how to proceed with their management lies with you. I don't think any one should gainsay that judgement, but I would respectfully ask you to factor in the best interests of the snakes, present and future, in this case.

I Really like the way you think KW!
Matt

I agree, let's do our best to keep the blood lines strong by avoiding inbreeding. I'm not a big fan of inbreeding any time. Even if I were into breeding albinos I would try to get unrelated stock. But, that's just my opinion. Maybe i'm all wet.

Eric

while hatchlings need to be fed almost constantly, i feed my adults roughly only twice a month. that's all they need and don't usually ask for more. part of the problem alot of guys are experiencing w/ their of age females is [i think anyway] from overfeeding them leading to passage problems when they become gravid. my girls are relatively 'thin' and never have difficulty at egg bearing time. thoughts? also, in answer to a question posed...steve fuller has just hatched out a successful clutch of unicolors from a 20 month old female. i've seen her pic and she looks very similar to my females.....shapely however not heavy bodied at all. therein lies the key imho. have a great 4th everyone and let me know back your experiences! .......dannio

Dan...When I saw your uni eggs a couple years ago, I seem to remember that they were like the yt eggs I had last year...MUCH smaller than eastern or TX eggs

So far it seems that eastern, TX and rub. (per odlherper's results) have larger eggs and fewer clutches and unis, bts, and yts have smaller eggs and larger clutches.

I would think they'd be better able to breed younger...
I'd be worried personally about breeding an eastern or tx that youg...

np

Thank you all for your comments. Points are certainly valid. A forum is place for discussion of ideas and our passion for Drymarchon and all of the related issues. I take no offense at anyone's remarks. Regarding the size of eggs, with the only clutch of unicolor eggs I've ever seen all of the eggs were uniform in size and shape and about 2/3 size of Eastern or Texas eggs.

Yeah, I would be real nervous about having an Eastern, Tex, or rubidus trying to lay eggs that size if they were under about 5 1/2 or 6 feet. I'm afraid egg binding would be a real problem. A couple of my rubidus eggs were over 3 inches long and nearly 1 1/2 inches in diameter. A clutch of 8 or 10 of those could be a real challenge for a 4 foot Indigo.

I'm sure they breed younger in the wild than we breed them in captivity, but there are a lot of other variables. There are,quite frankly, a bunch of things we don't know. What effect does the widely varied diet of a wild Indigo have on egg development and parturition? What effect does the increased activity level of a wild Indigo have? Does a smaller snake produce smaller eggs? Or, will it produce the same size egg but smaller clutches? Or...is egg size and clutch size unaffected by the size of the snake?

One thing I know for sure. Small egg=small baby, big egg=big baby. Therein lies one of the strange things about Dry offspring. Tex, Eastern and rubidus babies are relatively large, then usually max out at less than 8 feet as adults. Yellowtails are relatively small and slender as babies (comparatively), but turn into 9 or 10 foot monsters as big around as my forearm. What if Yellowtails were as big and robust as Easterns, Tex or rubidus when they hatch? Would they be 12 or 14 footers when they reach adult size? Does the size of the baby (within normal limits) have anything to do with the adult size of the snake? Is it more a difference in metabolic rate and genetic blueprint?

Just my 2 cents...Last year ya'll remember I lost a very healthy and heavy 7' girl to egg binding...This year a relatively slender 6' girl also had severe dystocia, but luckily I changed tactics and didn't lose the girl..Don't know what to make of these experiences, just thought I'd throw 'em out there..
To my thinking, E & T's throw such big eggs that it really takes it out of the female..The girl this spring is eating well and she still looks like she's starving trying to regain her pre-breeding weight..So I still think that the female's weight is more crucial than anything before deciding to breed...They have to be able to stand the stress of growing those great big eggs...
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Carl W Gossett
Garage Door Herps
Monument,Colorado...northern territory of the Great Republic of Texas