Reptile & Amphibian Forums

okay, i know people get in arguments about substrate, but i need to know this from different people. is sand okay for beardies? i'm experienced with leos, and i know it's a possibility of impaction. is it the same with beardies, or are they totally safe on sand?

The risk is there but there isn't a perfect substrate. It's something you have to decied to use or not. No cut & dry answer.

I'm sure that helped. lol
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Joel R

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www.SpikesAndScales.com

i heard somewhere that adulds can be with fine calci sand because if they ingest it, it wont do any harm, and it will give them a good source of calcium. is this right?

That would be true if they only ingested a tiny amount. If they however ingested a lot, or even a moderate amount over a period of time, it has shown to cause problems of too much calcium. Some what solidifying their insides.

We have a Vet. Tech. in our herp. society who was telling us of all the problems they have been seeing associated with several brands of (calcium based sands)

As an experiment, go get one bag of calci sand. Cut a hole in the top of the bag & put a good amount of water in it and let it sit outside or in a garage. Give it time to dry & see what happens.

Let us know what happens.
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Joel R

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I do guess it's only fair to say also,,, I'm sure there are many people who use the stuff all the time & never have any problems.

Use at your own risk, is the best advice I can give.
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Joel R

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thanks for lettin me know. so what do u use? i use repti carpet with my leos. that ok for beardies?

most people seem to agree that non adhesive shelf liner is the best stuff to use until they reach adult size and age. a lot of people stick w/ shelf liner, other swith to washed and sifted play sand

I use paper towel for little ones & rabbit pellets for adults. My adults don't drink from spraying so that's not a worry. I soak them every couple days & feed soaked rep cal pellets.
If you do spray,, do not use rabbit pellets! They will grow mold & other nasty's
I know the rabbit pellets are controversial but they work for me & my dragons don't seem to mind so...

I did raise 6 clutches on play sand last year, without any problems. Well I take that back. I did have one die. Not from impaction but it was under a cave & another dragon was under the same cave & was digging until it buried the other & it suffocated. I did have a some what similar thing with paper towel though. One some how got under the paper towel, under the cave, which is right under a basking bulb. Anyway, it got stuck & couldn't get out from under the heat & overheated.

Nothing is 100% safe. Everything has it's poss. & neg.
Just to throw it out there,,, I was going to try the shelf liner but it had such a strong odor it worries me. Dragons are very sensitive to chemicals that stuff smells.
I haven't hear of anyone having any trouble with it yet but time will tell.
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Joel R

Coming Soon!
www.SpikesAndScales.com

IMO, sifted playsand (not calcium sand) is ok for adult beardies, but not so much for young ones. Impaction is a risk no matter what when using sand, but there are things you can do to prevent against it, like putting the food dish on a riased area or placemat so sand doesn't get kicked into it. Also, some dragons are lickers, they will lick everything they see, and if that's the case it may be a good idea to just avoid sand altogether.

All things taken into consideration, it is a decent substrate for adult beardies, but every case is different so just absorb all the info you can and make an educated choice.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

yes there is still chance of impaction especcialy when the beardie is young, i've found out to use shelf liner and not have to worry bout impaction

No sand for baby BD's paper substrates would be best. As for play sand there's a recent issue of one of the reptile mags that has an x-ray of a lizard with total impaction from playsand. As for calium based substrates I've never seen anything more than people's opinions and poorly performed experiments to contra-indicate it's use. Yes it will set like concrete when wetted and I use that to my advantage. Once set it's hard for them to eat very much and to clean I just get out the shop vac and suck up the poop and cricket parts. I've been using calci sand for years on a variety of lizards and cannot attribute a single death to calci sand.

Rabbit pellets are a good alternative if kept dry. If ingested well the are a vegetarian diet. I've never much cared for wheat bran what a pain in the tookus that stuff is.

Another 2cents for the pot.
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Hope this helps.

BigT

Well, for the record, I don't base my opinions on other people's opinions or experiments. The reason I advise against calcium sand is because I personally have seen dragons that got impacted on the stuff, and my vet says she sees it all the time too. It's not a pretty thing, and it's a terrible way to die.

That's enough for me to never, ever use the stuff.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

But you'll use play sand which is totally indigestable? Good logic. What does your vet say about that?
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Hope this helps.

BigT

Calcium sand is no more digestable than playsand. It isn't digestable at all, you said it yourself, it sets like concrete when wet. The thing about calcium sand is, when too much is ingested it alters the PH in the stomach acid and slows digestion even further. So even if playsand isn't more digestable, it's easier to pass.

If calcium sand never caused any problems, so many people wouldn't speak out against it. It's not like we're all just making up stories about it because it costs more or because we're playsand salesmen. Just because you've never had an animal get impacted on it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Same with playsand, the risk is lessened, but it's still there none the less and people should be warned of it.

I don't use playsand. The original post asked everyone's opinions on sand, and that's what I gave. I didn't say it's what I use. I won't risk impaction with my pets at all. If you want to know what my vet says, they say our lizards are right up there with the best cared for they've seen.

And by the way, it's one thing to relate our own personal opinions and experiences so other people can learn from them, but don't take it to the next level by getting rude. You said you've "never seen anything more than people's opinions and poorly performed experiments" and I simply responded that for me that isn't the case because I've seen it with my own eyes. I did not make one comment towards you personally on what you've chosen to do, even though I don't agree with it.

It was offensive the way you responded to me and ill-informed. That's how things get ugly around here and I won't participate in it. Unless you want to continue this discussion in a reasonable manner I'm done.
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Amanda
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2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

How can the calci sand be digestible if it turns into a rock when mixed with water? How can the calcisand NOT change the ph of the stomach acid in the beardie? How can you possible keep any living animal on something that has been proven to cause death in so many animals? These are not myths like the superworm eating it's way out of the beardie's stomach, they are proven documented occurances that you can not argue.

Sorry, I was going to keep my mouth closed on this one but I know how the reptile manufacturers play their marketing games without any regulation whatsoever and I know they spew a $&%^load of BS our way to try to get us to buy their overpriced, misleading, harmful CRAP to make their greedy pockets bigger and bigger.

Sure, there's some good products out there but you don't think they know what's up? Tell me a company is going to get it's name out if all it sells is stuff that has been proven to fail. Make one fantastic product and the word gets around. Now you have a name. Chances are most consumers would trust a company with a great product to make all of it's products with the same kind of quality. It would be great if that were true but it has been proven that is not true with some of the manufacturers. They know how to play on people's trust and ignorance and all they want to accomplish is to sell product regardless of the outcome. You think it's some kind of animal lover who started these businesses who donates to conservation organizations and sincerely tries to help animals? If so, you've been fooled. These companies are owned by business people who want to make money and they know how to do it.

Granted not every manufacturer is like this and there are some that are wonderful and obviously produce all their products in the best interest of the animal and themselves instead of just themselves. After awhile you begin to recognize what companies these are. Most of them don't seem to be the huge manufacturer's because unfortunately it is easier to make more money faster if you have the ability to fool your buyers.

Okay, I'm done now.
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Rob Talkington

I've never seen any documentation to support your case. If you could provide me with some I would like to see it.
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Hope this helps.

BigT

Do a search on Google regarding calcisand and impaction. The documentation from that search alone should satisfy your request. If not then I'm taking it you're looking for scientific documentation. Well frankly I don't see any good reason to spend the time searching for this type of documentation when the overwhelming majority of keepers say the stuff is bad news.

If this were just some rumor that was spreading about this substrate I'd want the kind of documentation I think you're looking for but it's obvious this is not just a rumor and truly is a serious problem.
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Rob Talkington

if calci-sand gets wet, wont it harded? do beardies pick a certain spot to poop, or anywhere?