Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi tort-people,

I would like to get a baby female Greek Tortoise. I already have a male Greek Tortoise. I got him at the East Bay Vivarium (retail store in the San Francisco Bay Area, CA) when he was a baby and he is now ready to go to the larger enclosure. In the future both boy & girl tortoises can live in the larger enclosure.

At the time we bought our Greek tortoise -named Toto, it was too early to know wheter it was a boy or a girl. I was told it was a girl, but I suspected otherwise because his tail was very long. I understand that the sex of the hatchlings depends on the temperature of incubation.

Here are my questions:

Would the breeder know and then be able to tell me wether it's a boy or a girl when I buy the baby tortoise?

If so, are there any Greek tortoise breeders close/or reasonably close/driving distance to where I live (Norhtern California)? The phone area codes in my area are 415/707/510/650. I know there are breeders in other states that send pets by mail, but then, I can't see the baby in person, and wouldn't that be a horrible experience for the tortoise?

Thanks in advance for your help!

There is no way to conclusively sex a hatchling/juvenile, although some breeders do incubate for male or female (but I don't believe that is 100% sure). You would have to wait several years to find out. The only way to make sure you have a pair is to buy adults. If both your babies turned out male, you would probably have to separate them when mature, so be aware this might be a possibility in the future.

I don't know of any breeders in N. California (I'm in Sonoma County)--I checked for breeders of Hermann's, and there aren't any. EBV might be able to get you another one, but I'm not sure that they get Greeks in very often. Otherwise, you would have to have one shipped, which is overnight and generally safe, although I would suggest you don't buy a hatchling under 3 or 4 months old.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

How old is your tortoise now? If he is still pretty young, you might not be able to sex him for a few more years, whatever the person at EBV told you. Most of their personnel are pretty good, but some of them don't have a clue. I called them a few months ago about Hermann's hatchlings, was told they had them, made the drive down to look at them, and they were T. marginata (marginated), not T. hermanni. The guy I'd talked to said, "well, Hermann's and marginated are the same"--NOT. I did end up getting a marginated anyway, but I got an apology and a discount. At their prices, they should be hiring people who know what they're talking about.

Anyway, my point again is, if you want to be sure you have a pair, buy adults.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Hi Sohni,

I live in Novato, next to Sonoma Co. Thanks for the info!

I agree with what you said about the EBV. This is my first Greek tortoise. Years ago back home, I had Chaco or Argentinean tortoises (2 girls and a boy). I had all of them since they were babies (shell size slightly larger than a quarter). Since the beginning, the two females had very stubby tails and the male's tail was longer.

Another good question: how can find out the tortoise's age?

When I got Toto (january'03) his shell was about 2 inches long. Now it's 6 inches long. Months later we found out he was a male (penis out in warm water - lower areas in the plastron curved inwards, very long tail and position of cloaca). Changed his name from Tota to Toto.

How come he grew so fast? And if his shell was 2" when I bought him how old was he then?

I also posted another message about tortoise/turtle behavior. My kids keep on asking, why does he bob his head? eat his poop? move his "arms" and "legs" rythmically like he is exercising?

Thanks again,

TT

Hi, Tina--

Well, if Toto is fanning, then he is certainly all boy! Wow, he grew that much in a year and a half? I've had my Hermann's nearly a year, and he's grown about 1/2" and a little over 50g, which I think is on track. Not sure about Greeks, though--they probably grow a little faster than Hermann's. If Toto isn't pyramided, then I wouldn't worry about his growth too much. Also, if he grew that fast, then I would guess he was probably pretty young when you got him at 2". Generally EBV has them around 3 months old.

If Toto is that big, then you might want to consider getting an older female for him. A 6" tortoise might be too intimidating for a small hatchling, unless of course you want to house them separately unless the little one is bigger.

A lot of tortoises eat their poop. I guess it's a way to recycle nutrients. Mine don't do it (yet, lol). The head bobbing and leg pumping helps them to breathe--they don't have a diaphram like we do. If you watch, you'll notice that they do it faster when they're excited or scared.

Hope this helps! I bet Toto is enjoying the summer weather. What is your enclosure like? I'm always looking for ideas!
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

There are some good breeders in Fla. that are breeding Greeks but unless you have a picture of the parents of the one you have it is going to be near impossible to pair it up considering all the different forms there are.

Your best bet is to get another from the same source as the first. Do not worry about breeding a single generation sibling.

Anyone who has bred a particular species has a 'feeling' for the sexes. What you have to find is an honest breeder that will give you their true feeling and not what you want to hear.

Some of the good breeders in Fla is the Abbotts and George Ulman. I think George Ulman is Turtle World.

Either one of them can give you a 'best guess' that can be trusted.

As far as East Bay Viv goes, unless they've changed owners in the last year or 2 you cannot argue with the reputation that they've built. You pretty much get what you pay for and I don't think you can do better with the quality or service that they normally give.

One of the primary indicators as to what you can expect from a shop is the length of time that they've been around. East Bay Viv has withstood the test of time. The way I understand it is that each subsequent owner worked for the previous owner for a long time before the transfer of ownership... that says something.

Back to the point at hand. See if you can get pictures of the adults that produced the baby you have. Then go from there.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Having visited EBV many times over the past several years, and having purchased several animals from them, I'd have to agree with you on the general quality they have available, but at the same time, there are things that I'm disturbed by every time I go there. For instance, they have a large sulcata and iguana (not for sale) housed together, and in the summer they often have a pen full of WC russians with an iguana in with them. I mentioned the issue I had with being misinformed about species identification. Both tortoises I purchased from them had hookworm, which I realize is spread pretty easily, but at their prices, you might expect better.

All in all, I think EBV is a great place for snakes and lizards. Tortoises I'm not so sure about. If you're paying a premium and then have to spend another $100 on vet bills, it's not such a good deal. If you can buy direct from a breeder, you're better off, IMO.
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Sohni

0.1 Baja de L.A. Rosy Boa
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake
1.1 Rubber Boas
1.0 Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 Hermann's Tortoise
0.0.1 Marginated Tortoise
1.0 3 Toed Box Turtle (rescued)
plus my kids' herps:
0.1 California King Snake
1.0 Mexican Rosy Boa
0.1 Leopard Gecko

Most of the tortoises the I've seen for sale in East Bay Viv do come from breeders. Most breeders I know will recommend that their tortoises be checked and most will be found to have parasites. This is because most are kept outdoors and there is no way you can prevent the acquisition of parasites among tortoises unless you worm and flagyl on a regular basis and most breeders do not recommend.

Now, there may be some paranoid backyard breeders that keep their toroises sterile of parasites but those are rare and many believe that this does more harm than good.

The guys that run East Bay are very well informed and they are doing nothing different than most zoos do.

There is a very different mentality among some tortoise keepers and most normal herpers (if you can call herpers 'normal')

If you don't agree with their practice that's your choice and if they don't agree with yours, that's theirs.

I wouldn't think twice about purchasing an animal from East Bay Vivarium.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Oh, one other thing...
Buying from a breeder...
If you get it at Eastbay you have the option of seeing what you get and having a recourse if something goes wrong. With a breeder that is not always an option and they are basically the same animal.
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks for the info Ed!

And to answer your question Sohni, the outdoor enclosure is movable and it is made modifying a matrass box, with shelter on the sides and an igloo (tortugloo? ). It's on the patio so I don't have to worry about him digging and escaping. On the "floor" there's tree leaves/bark (there are 4 trees that shed leaves all the time). Because the patio is so shady I made the outdoor enclosure movable so he can have both sun and shade. In the afternoon he goes back inside so he doesn't get cold and of course he spends the night indoors in his terrarium all cozy with heating pad/igloo etc.

I give him dandelion, kale, spinach, all kinds of greens, and he loves tomato, strawberries, grapes. All green leafy veggies and fruit. I am afraid of giving him the grass from the lawn/lawn weeds/flowers because I don't know what they are or if they are poisonous. I don't know anything about plants and instead of a green thumb I have a black thumb! I never used any fertilizer or weed killer. I don't use any chemicals/removers, and rather have an ugly lawn than poisoning our pets or neighborhood animals. Also our cat chews grass once in a while.

Anybody knows where I can take a sample of the lawn/weeds to be checked?

Have a good one,

TT

I tried identifying all the plants that were available to all my animals over the years and over the areas I've lived...once.
Unless you'd like to become a Botanist I don't think it's necessary beyond the obvious. Reptiles seem to have the ability to tolerate different plants than mammals.
If given a choise they will walk away from what is not good for them. If you're not sure of a plant and it looks like it might be good for them to eat, give them the chance of a taste and see how they react.
I don't know of any lawn weed that would be harmful if fed as part of an extremely varied diet.
Now, if you're not comfortable with this method... have fun. This should keep you busy and this is only a fraction of the available resources on the net. Also, Don't forget there are still books and librarys. (or...you can let the tortoise decide).

Plant links

http://www.ansci.cornell.edu/plants/

http://www.tlady.clara.net/TortGuide/Diet.htm#plantlist

http://www.taoherbfarm.com/herbs/resources/weeds.htm

http://www.ads.uga.edu/annrpt/1997/97_015.htm

http://www.oxbowhay.com/art_nutrient_analysis.htm

http://www.scs.leeds.ac.uk/pfaf/index.html

http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/cgi-bin/nut_search.pl
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Ed
Tortoise_Keepers-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi Ed, Sohni and all!
We give Toto calcium and vitamins that we got at EBV. I try to vary his diet as much as I can. The problem is that when we take him out of his enclosure to play with us, he tries to eat anything (besides his poop) wether is food or not, like the cat's kibbles, fuzz from the rug, or worst of all rocks or pebbles! We have to watch him really close. He is especially attracted to rocks even with a plate of food next to him.
Maybe it's a gender thing? I remember that about my Argentinean Chaco tortoises back home. The male -also named Toto- tried to chew an electric cord and always wanted to get under the refrigerator. The 2 females on the other hand sniffed and investigated but seemed to have an instinct for harmful things and stayed away from trouble.
Sohni: I haven't found any breeders... I'll keep you posted.
Thanks for the advice & links!
Miss Turtle