Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I posted this in the Herp Health Forum, but wanted to see if there were any thoughts from this forum...

Hi,
I'm new to the forums, and quasi-new to reptiles as pets. I had a couple questions about the Tokay and Leopard geckos my gf and I own. (mostly the Tokay)
First, a very breif breakdown of how we came to be owners of these very neat pets..

Since childhood I have played with lizards, mostly fence/spiny lizards in CA. My gf has never been very much into them. Since we can't get a dog or cat, I took her to the pet store (Petco) and told her to pick something out within reason. We came home with a Leopard Gecko in a ten gallon tank and all the appropriate trappings.
Not to long after that, someone donated an old 55 gallon fishtank to our gecko, named Mozilla. I cleaned out the tank with bleach solution and we bought new lights, cover, UTH and sand, and moved Mozilla to her (his, we found out) new home. She was tenative, but I think he likes it.
So we have an empty 10 gallon tank, and ever since I saw the Tokays at the pet store, I've been interested in getting one. So of course, I bought a Tokay and the necessary substrate and some other neat things for the tank.

That pretty much sums it up.
Disclaimer: I know, buying from the petstore sucks, and I certainly found this out after a few visits, post-purchase. Although the Petco here (Brighton, MA) is cleaner than most pet stores I've been to.

Okay. So pretty much all my questions are about the Tokay.

Housing: I've been reading a LOT on forums and care sheets about various opinions on how to care for and house these pets. My setup for the Tokay (Kabuki) is this.. 10 Gallon tank, orchid bark substrate, small UTH (which I only really turn on when it looks like it's too cool in the tank), a dish for worms that he (she, we found out) barely notices, a small grotto, and a store-bought waterfall (which serves to humidify the tank - quite well).
I have two tops to the 10 gallon. One is the original, aquarium-style bar light over glass and plastic tank top, which fits rather well in the top and creates a relatively good seal for moisture. The other is a split screen top that hinges in the middle. I bought the latter because the former was holding in moisture TOO well. The tank was reaching 90% humidity with a temp range around 84-90. The inside walls of the tank would get totally fogged and dripping wet, and Kabuki wouldn't climb around as usual. So I got the mesh top, and put a regular construction cone light on top, and found the temp staying the same, but the humidity dropping down to 50%, which I know is not good. I haven't quite found an equilibrium where I can keep the humidity at around 70-80, short of just opening the top of the aquarium-style top and letting it air our for a few hours - which, obviously, I can't do when I'm not there to keep an eye on the gecko. I can probably turn the little waterfall off, and that will lower the humidity considerably.
Any suggestions? An alternative that my gf and I have considered, is to move Mozilla back to the 10 gallon, and give Kabuki the 55. Most people seem to think that 10 gallons is too small even for one gecko. I'm sure there are differing opinions, but the fact is, we have two tanks, and one gecko climbs alot. So it's a possibility. Although the 55 has a mesh top, and I have my doubts about keeping a consistent 70 humidity level in such a large tank.

Health: Kabuki has two pea-sized lumps (She's just about full grown) behind her head, on either side of her neck. A picture should be included, but I should say that in the picture, it looks a lot worse than it is. After reading several scattered posts about similar problems in various gecko species, the consensus is to take the gecko (or a fresh stool, rather) to a vet specialist to see what's going on. The topic never seemsto be resolved, and no one replies with the results. I've heard that it is a calcium deficiency, but then that was disputed as well. I didn't notice these lumps until after I got her home from Petco (I know, I know..), and had hoped they might have been a reaction to the handling, or the type of diet she was getting previously. Of course, it doesn't seem to be a hindrance, as she is generally active, fiesty and eats like a horse (5-7 dusted Calcium/D3 crickets daily, and pretty much any amount of mealworms I dangle in front of her). Two quesions on this one - Has anyone ever dealt with this issue, and come to a conclusion? And if it is necessary to see a vet, does anyone have a suggestion for someone in the Boston, MA area? I know many people will suggest going to a vet right away, but for a 13$ pet, if there is a way to eliminate the problem, I'd like to know. If it's absolutely necessary to see a vet, I will. An alternative is taking the Tokay back to Petco and either getting a different one, sans lumps, or not getting a replacement at all. There is a herp show here in October that we are going to, where we might be more inclined to buy from a healthier breeder.

Cohabitation: We've also considered getting either a young Leopard or a common House Gecko to cohabit with one of our current geckos. It seems as though the Tokay would be unfriendly, however, she has been rather docile when I'm in there moving things about or cleaning up feces. She almost never strikes out even when I'm fairly close. Is it most likely that she would eat/attack a small house gecko (We would move them to the 55)? and on the other hand, do adult Leopards ever have problems with young Leos in a large tank?

That's about it for now. I look forward to more activity in the gecko forums here. Sorry for the long-winded message, but those are my concerns right now. Thanks for any response!

Rory

10g: Tokay, 'Kabuki'
55h: Leopard, 'Mozilla'

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Also, on the housing subject, I wanted to add that I have considered getting a 'fogger' to put in the current small waterfall, that way I might be able to keep the humidity up with the mesh top on (also would look neat).

Welcome and congrats on owning a Tokay. First off if you want advice from Tokay keepers you will find that a 10 gal is way to small for a Tokay. You'll hear even larger but I would get at least a 70 gal tall tank. The taller and bigger the better for the health of your Tokay. When looking at tops, yes you want humidity but also you need good ventalization. I use a 2/3 screen 1/3 glass top and over the cool end I have a towel over the sreen which allow breathing and helps hold humidity. A uth is not the ideal heat source for a Tokay although i suppose you could use it. A red infred bulb at the top on one side works great by itself as long as there is a window in the room to give a day/night cycle, otherwise a simple light bulb set up on a timer works great for that. Your tokay will move around the tank and up towards the heat source as its feels too.
Tokays are aggressive eaters but I have found mealies are not real attractive to them most the time, specially if their in a dish. A staple of crickets will work well and mealies, roaches, piinkies, etc. can be used also for variety.
Tokays will store calcium in sacs on both sides of their necks like where you descibed. My females have large reserves but I've never seen them on males. Looking at your pic looks very stange though. Maybe its just the angle the pic is from. Looks more like maybe a tumor or something. Are those lumps on both sides of the neck and about the same size? Is your Tokay eating well? Your substates sounds fine, be sure to have plenty of hiding areas and climbing things. Boy this is getting long to long, heres a pic of one of my setups for your veiwing.

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My posts and replies are my experiences only
1.2.15 Tokays
1.4.10 Leos(13 albino)
1.2.0 AFT's(amel male)
0.2.0 Stenodactylus Petrii(Dune Geckos)

Thanks a lot for the reply. On the tank - I think I will be looking at moving the Leopard Gecko back to the 10gallon, and moving the Tokay over to the 55. It's not the 'high' style, and it's rather long, but at least it will make a difference.
As for the lumps, yes the picture looks worse than it actually is, because of the way Kabuki is turned. I had a conversation with the Manager and "Reptile Specialist" at Petco when I was over there getting crickets. They said they see the lumps often, and they've sent them to the vet, with the response that they are calcium deposits, natural, and do not affect the health of the gecko. I first suspected this after searching around online, but with that information, they also said that extra calcium dustings would cure it, nd it hasn't. The Manager said that they just build up a calcium store when there is a deficiency, and extra calcium won't necessarily reduce the stores. But that they may fluctuate, and are generally normal. Kabuki is a female, so maybe it's more frequent in the females (For eggs, I assume) than the males. I'll still dust the crickets probably every other day and hopefully her metabolism will balance it all out - or they will diminish with the breeding cycle. Otherwise, she eats like a horse and seems generally healthy and active.
As for the humidity, I tried going with the mesh top, adding a 75watt black light for heat, as well as the regular uvb bar-light for a day cycle, and covered the rest of the mesh with mousepads (I have a lot), and the humidity STILL went down to 50.
I figure when I switch over to the 55 gallon (which is all mesh split top), I'll do a similar setup to yours, with lights on either end, one black one white, and cover the rest in a towel, which I can try to spray for extra humidity.
Again, thanks for the info, and I will try to post up some pictures of my progress.

Rory

Ok everything sounds great, but don't listen to that manager, they don't store calcuim because of a deficiency if there was a deficiency(lack of) then your tokay would not have delevoped calcuim sacs. Female tokays store calcuim to aid in the delevopment of the eggs' shell. I've never kept Females by themselves so I don't if the sacs go away, since your supplementing calcuim every other day.

Israel

I have i big bulky male. And he wont harm a fly...unless its was food.
-first i would move the tokay to the 55 gallon, and leo in the 10gallon, mines 15 inchs and big(not fat)
-ten gallon is way to small for an almost full grown tokay.
-my cage is 4f=L 2f=deep 4f=high i plan on gettin a female.
-tokays are awsome herps and i heard the bigger the cage the nicer the tokay.
-i would start feedin the tokay the odd pinky(dead ones they still slam againt the enclosure)
-since your tank is long u said i would eventually get a big TALL tank for it.
-foggers r good but can shock u LOL(it hurt sometimes). i dont wont my herps gettin shocked so i put it in a seperate container with screen over it
-u want proper ventilation, i have screen windows on my cage keeps humidty at 77%, since ur usin the 55 gallon for now cover half the cage top with glass or towels, do what ur doin, the orchard bark makes high humidity which good. so i would spray couple times a day, put lots of branchs, elevated food dishes and hides r good tokays like them,make sure there a hide on ground too. Keep water fall goin and get the fogger its so awsome with the blue night heat lights made by exterra. just make sure u have another water dishs, mine most of the time drinks the water i spray on to it.(dont forget to spray). if ur having problems with the humidity being low put damp moss on part of bottom, spagnum works well ad looks great.
-i wounldn't put a baby leo with the older one, cause if it a male and baby female...it will still try to mate with it(i heard) this cause great stress on baby. Just raise them seperate, no matter what sex.
-house gecko with leo; i wouldn't do it. if u want a community enclosure i would get house geckos and green anoles if anything.

hope this helps!!ALSO tokays are so AWSOME!!

Lardman

You will be happy to know that I have dealt with many lumps. Not to dispute anyone else, but this is from my experience NEVER from a VitD3/Calcium deficiency. A lot of people blame EVERYTHING on this because it is easy and sounds knowledgeble (pointing it at you PetCo). This is most likely an infection from a bite or a previous wound. Most tokays being wild caught have skin tears and rips. In a small tank this could be caused by wall banging. A cricket could have bit the wound or infected it. There are a variety of things that could be the cause, and overall this is usually not dangerous. However, I would personaly take it out. I'm not supposed to tell you how but I'm going to anyway. Take a razor blade and dip it in iodine. In a QUICK and precise fashion lacerate the bulge at its tip. Make sure the laceration as small as possible. Proceed to squeeze out that which will most likely be a yellowish puss. If it smells rotten, thats the flesh being eaten away (not good, a reason to lacerate this btw). After removing the puss use a feeding syringe to push some iodine in there to rinse it out. If you dont feel comfortable doing this, I would recommend a vet do it. Just a disclamer, I cant be held responsible if anything goes wrong, this is just my opinion. This is getting long and I have to go. If you have further questions on the procedure or if you want to hear several other reasons for why this may be occuring let me know and I'll gladly spill my brains on the matter when I have more time. Good luck.

CUT OPEN THE SACS that is dumb, today i went to the pet store, and saw three tokays, one cage had 1 malethe other had a male and female. The female had to medium bumps on ither side of the neck, im pretty sure that is calcium sacs for eggs, not infections. Not quite sure tho! BUT i know that female giant day geckoes have calcium sacs on neck for eggs. So plz dont cut open the bumps, if your worried bring it to the vet. IM basically povistive that its calcium sacs not infections. I have never had a female, but i seen and heard about this its common on females. So it has to be calcium sacs for eggs.

Tokays are awsome pets tho!!

Lardman

I would never tell someone to cut open the calcium sacks (they are completely harmless, infact helpfull like you stated). From that picture, I'm 99% sure that is NOT a calcium sack of any kind. First, it is located on only one side from my understanding. Second, even female tokays do not posess such large pertruding lumps with excess calcium. More pictures would help me identify what it could be.

indeed...then i would bringto the vet just to be safe

Lardman