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Frustrating...any other breeder have this happen to them?

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 10:14 AM

Well, we have not had one baby die on us since the beginning, and now, only one has died that we have shipped out. about 24 days after it was shipped out, it died, and the customer contacted me notifying me of this. I was bummed, and i was thinking i had done something wrong, although they were clear of parasites when i shipped him out. Even though it was not practical that i did something wrong (since it had been 24 days before the baby died), i still blamed myself. I asked a few questions like what she fed it and what substrate, then i got the key answer. Vita-sand. Ugh. She had the baby on vitasand, and it died unexpenctanly. My geuss is that the vita sand impacted the little guy, as he was living and fed on the sand. I felt absolutly horrible, because i send out a care sheet with every purchase, and i always hope they actually use them, but im geussing not after all. Sigh. Anyone else have this problem, where no matter how hard you tell the person not to do seomthing in regard to husbandry of the bearded dragons, they do it anyway, have the baby die, and pretty much blame you? Ughhh...
Anyway, thanks for your time. The customer still doesnt believe that the vita sand could have been a key ingredient to the demise of the baby.

David
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
2.2 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapago)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.8 Red Eared Sliders

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

Replies (14)

rjharper Jul 07, 2004 10:38 AM

i'm sorry - it truly is frustrating when you offer good advice time and time again, and people still ignore it because they know best, or some big chain pet store gave them bum advice just to sell an overpriced product that they dont need.

you did everything you could, the same way we give good advice on this forum and watch as people come back two weeks down the line because now their little babies is dying, because despite our advice they wanted to keep the calci sand because it 'looked cool' and they had 'no problmes to date'.

keep up the good breeding, and dont let this little episode, while unfortunate, get you down too much.
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Ross

0.1 Bearded Dragon (Fuego, spent the last 10 months thinking she was a he!)
2.1 Roommates (require more cleaning up after than the dragon)

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 10:50 AM

Thanks so muhc for the kind words of encouragment. It means a lot.
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
1.3 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapaga)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.1 Alligator Snapping Turtle (Unnamed)

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

zz Jul 07, 2004 11:07 AM

You know, you will never be able to please ALL the people ALL the time...heck all you can hopeful is to please some of the people, SOME of the time.

I am not a breeder but I can relate. I have taken in a snake because the people just WOULDN'T take proper care of it. They had a kingsnake (beautiful-Kingsnake) in a home-made wooden enclosure (with screen sides). Living on carpet wth a desk lamp (inside with the snake) for heat and a blanket over the whole thing. (because the snake seemed jumpy and this persons mom didn't like looking at snakes)...They fed this poor thing WHENEVER they felt like (probalby about 1 mouse per month) I have had him for about 2 years now in a 55 gallon and he has grown about 1-1 1/2 feet!

Chin up. You have a good record and are a good person.!
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Hangin with the Herps
ZZ

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 11:53 AM

Again, thanks for the kind words. It means a lot. You did a great job in taking in that kingsnake, im glad it is in a good home.
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
1.3 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapaga)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.1 Alligator Snapping Turtle (Unnamed)

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

beardiedragon Jul 07, 2004 10:54 AM

I have heard of some breeders who actually give prospective buyers a test before shipping an animal to them but I don't see it as reallistic in most cases unless you only have a clutch or so a year and aren't in a rush to sell them. I do try to actually talk to all of my customers and not rely soley on an email of "I want to buy thus BD heres the money". But some people know it all...

History is bound to repeat itself unless people learn from the past. Sadly we cant eliminate hate and violence because some people refuse to learn from other peoples mistakes and so it will be with BDs too. Nothing you can do but offer the info and hope they read it.
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Bennett


Home of the Florida Orange
www.beardiedragon.com

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 11:54 AM

Thanks for understanding.
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
1.3 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapaga)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.1 Alligator Snapping Turtle (Unnamed)

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

rujonesin Jul 07, 2004 11:10 AM

While the sand is an obvious no-no I just can't believe under any circumstances that it could have caused death by impaction within 24 hours. I'm not saying you are to blame and the customer isn't just that impaction from the sand that quickly is highly unlikely. I am pretty sure dying this way would take at least a couple days. Just my thoughts.

Mike
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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

rujonesin Jul 07, 2004 11:13 AM

When I read it I saw 24 hours not days. I just reread and relaized she had it for more than three weeks. My goof. Sorry.

Mike
www.outbackdragons.com

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If you can read this, thank a teacher. If you are reading it in English, thank a soldier.

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 11:55 AM

perfectly alright, thanks
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
1.3 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapaga)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.1 Alligator Snapping Turtle (Unnamed)

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

CheriS Jul 07, 2004 02:16 PM

not seen on here before and something that people really need to talk about. Both the buyer and the seller need to have an understanding of what is expected of them should something like this occur.

Although very rare, sudden death in a established dragon over 6 weeks can occur without any prior indicators of problems and it has been in another home for a few weeks. If it does, it is usually related to something that the baby was exposed to, ate, or respiratory infection, any of which can kill a baby dragons in as little as a few minutes. In only one necropsy report out of many that have been set to us from vets on herpvetconnection,com and members of ARAV for data collection, was it from a congenital defect. In that case the baby had a muscle in the digestive tract that was defective

What should a buyer or a seller do if one is lost?

I think the buyer should notify the seller that one was lost. The seller should go over all the husbandry issues like you did..... the buyer has to understand, this is not to point blame, but a genuine concern to try and understand what happened. Private seller have a vested interest in the babies they sell, they nurtured and cared for these guys for several weeks and felt good when they left their home that all was well.

Sometime is can be something as simple as the baby inhaled water in the bath and a respiratory infection started. Toxins: Fumes from the dye when heated up on a piece of commercial home carpet(not designed for reptile), bleach not rinsed well from cleaning and fumes when that is heated. Aspiration of undigested food that the baby did not heat up properly before going to sleep, or a baby that had vitasand or calcisand in it, creating a blockage which pressed in the spine and CAN paralyze them from the upper back down, that includes the spontaneous breathing. Another showed that the sand had moved into the intestines and with crickets had created a blockage there, cause the baby to vomit when sleeping and it aspirated that into the lung......no signs of any problem prior and then suddenly what appeared to be a healthy baby dragon is gone.

All of the above are on actually necropsy reports we have been given involving very young dragons that were healthy up until the time they were found lifeless.

Thankfully, these owners did have a necropsy done and that helps the rest of us understand what did happen and to try and avoid those things in the future.

Its a terrible feeling for both the new owner and the breeder when these things happen, but also important to get answers as to why it happened. If an owner feels everything was perfect they should get a necropsy done. They can be done for much less through a University Vet school lab than many people realize.

If it came out it was congenital or birth defect related, I would replace the dragon, and pay all or part of the necropsy, ever after the time period guaranteed. If it showed it was not, and something husbandry related while they had the baby, I would still work with them on getting another dragon, at a discount and go over all husbandry issues.... sometimes those that lost one, make the best future owners.
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www.reptilerooms.com

alphadragon Jul 07, 2004 04:01 PM

..
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AlphaDragonZ
www.AlphaDragonZ.com

dmlove Jul 07, 2004 06:17 PM

Yes thank you so much for your insight. I talked it over with the lady, as she got another dragon from a pet store, and tried to talk her into tossing the sand and getting paper towels. She has yet to respond, but i really hope that she does do as I recommended. Thanks so much again
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David - Kevin
--KDRKreatures--

3.3 Bearded dragons (Rocco,Chong,Big Bob,Artemis,Cheech, Anna Nicole)
1.3 Eastern Box Turtles (Snappy, Mercuria, Gizmo, Galapaga)
1.0 Ball Python (Carson)
0.0.1 Alligator Snapping Turtle (Unnamed)

0.1 Timneh African Grey (Roxy)

KDRKreatures-Home Page
Email

litlebuterfly Jul 08, 2004 12:25 AM

Alot of really good advice there above. I myself had the same problem, all my babies are kept on paper towels and when the customers come to pick them out we also give a care sheet that does say no sand recomended and even why!

The customer bought 1 and 3 weeks later called iwth concerns and it came down to impaction when he brought it back over for me to look at. I worked it out and the baby has been fine since

Another case we also state no worms for the same problem so the customer runs out of crickets, goes to Petco and they are out, the employee recomends mealworms over crickets, customer says I did not recomend them and the employee had the nerve to tell them I was way in the wrong! They bought the worms went home fed(and of course they will eat them) then calls me 3 days later says the belly is enlarged and it has not gone to the bathroom and is up front with me that they fed it worms. Brought it back also worked that mess loose and it pooped them all out and ended up being ok. They went back and yelled at that employee!!

All you can do is recomend what you did and hope they listen.

Being that she got one from a pet store I hope they were taking care of it properly or she may just run into the same problems all over again.

CheriS Jul 08, 2004 03:01 AM

According to the necropsy reports we have collected, this are the top most common cause of death with bearded dragons

Adults

Fatty liver disease/other liver diseases such as mycosis
Renal failure (this can be related to fatty liver, meds or lack of hydration)
URI
Parasites
Egg binding in females( in most cases, the owners were not aware she had eggs, so not that she could not lay them, but fought laying them since she had no place suitable to, till they ruptured )
Viral infections

Under age one year, most these are under 6 months

Dehydration
Parasites
Impaction
Viral infection
URI
Renal failure

If anyone wants to read the whole article, the link below
Chronic Illness in Bearded Dragons

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www.reptilerooms.com

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