Reptile & Amphibian Forums

KFYR (Bismark N Dakota) 08 July 04 Expert Says Public Shouldn't Own Poisonous Snakes (Jody Kerzman)
TERRY PHILLIP WORKS WITH VENOMOUS SNAKES LIKE THESE EVERYDAY.
Terry: It's really not as dangerous as people think.
NOT FOR SOMEONE LIKE TERRY ANYWAY.
Terry: I learned first, experienced second. It's called responsibility.
RESPONSIBILITY THAT TERRY SAYS MANY PEOPLE WHO KEEP SNAKES AS PETS DON'T HAVE.
Terry Phillip/Reptile Gardens: Just because he sees something on tv, it's a testosterone trip..testerone and venomous snakes don't mix.
BUT BUYING SNAKES IS RELATIVELY EASY.
Terry: You can get on the internet, dig in your wallet...dealers are so unscrupulous they'll put it in a box and ship it...you'll have it in three days.
BUYING ANTI-VENOM IS TOUGHER.
Terry: Can't go on the internet and order ten bottles of mamba anti-venom.
IT CAN TAKE AS LONG AS A YEAR TO GET ANTI-VENOM. IN THE MEANTIME, IF A SNAKE OWNER GETS BITTEN...THEY'LL HAVE TO GET ANTI-VENOM FROM SOMEWHERE....PUTTING SNAKE HANDLERS LIKE TERRY PHILLIP AT RISK...THE ANTI-VENOM MIGHT NOT BE THERE WHEN THEY NEED IT.
IN NORTH DAKOTA, THERE'S NO LAW AGAINST HAVING VENOMOUS SNAKES AS PETS. SOME STATES DO REGULATE VENOMOUS SNAKE SALES. FOR EXAMPLE, THE STATE OF FLORIDA REQUIRES A THOUSAND HOURS OF EXPERIENCE WITH VENOMOUS SNAKES BEFORE YOU CAN BUY ONE... BUT PHILLIP SAYS, WHILE IT'S A START, IT'S NOT ENOUGH.
Terry: You could have a thousand hours with a small rattle snake and get licensed, go to the store and buy a cobra...even if you don't have a thousand hours with a cobra. But they'll still allow you to buy it.
Expert Says Public Shouldn't Own Poisonous Snakes

Oh ok...I guess only Zoo's and Reptile parks can have em. This cracks me up, someone who is a hotkeeper going against us saying the public shouldnt own hots. I agree most people shouldn't own hots, but for the ones who do and have done their homework with them, its not a problem as long as the requirements are met. Such useless negativity.

Joe

scroll down to a topic i started called "venomous dealers out of control"
You tell me that what I said is negative? Stupid buyer, not too bright seller, no knowledge of the snakes he bought or snakes in general, aquarium setups with single screens next to his bed, no antivenom, the belief that the mamba would not kill him, putting it in a sweater box and taking it around town to show his friends and YES letting them touch it!!!....and you are saying that I am giving you negative press?
The private people are giving themselves their own stupid negative press. I am trying to explain that if the proper knowledge, experience and protocol it's really not that dangerous! If you own venomous snakes you have to either own your own serum or live in Florida with the AV bank.
Other than that, if you don't have AV, You are being irresponsible and endangering the lives of others! I guarantee that I do support the removal of venomous snakes from 95% of the population that keep them.
This has become an epidemic! I'm tired of the late night calls that I have to come back to work package up AV and send it to someone that didn't know what AV was, yet still has a mamba, cobra, Taipan etc.
So if this means that only Zoos should have venomous snakes. because they are the only ones that are willing to expend the time, money and effort to buy AV then so be it!
Either take proper precaution and get some knowledge and experience or don't keep the snakes!
And guess what, when it comes time for legislation to take over guess who they come too, the zoos, and guess what they are all going to tell them?
All of you private people had better be making some changes as a group, or guess what, next time it will be your private collection all over the news!
There is no common sense left in this country. Period.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

90% of what you said focused on the negative. Since you work for a zoo this seems to be quite self serving and elitist. Lets see, outlaw private hotkeepers and more people will visit zoos to see such animals. You would also become a "God" of sorts since you would be one of the privileged few that could maintain such animals. Maybe your ego is in as much need of stroking as the guy who buys a king cobra to show off to his friends. If you care about the private keeping of venomous reptiles then maybe you could focus more of education and responsible legislature instead of negative attacks in which you lump all keepers into one mold. I dont think your true feelings came out in the interview but it did in response to the post above.

Heres one idea that I would submit to the group for discussion. Limit the "right" to keep venomous reptiles in the United States to only native species. This would be legal without a license. Then for exotic venomous such as taipans, mambas, etc , require extensive training(1000 hours) for each individual species you want to keep. This would be regulated and would have to be accompanied along with a preset amount of insurance and a keepers personal and up to date supply of anti venin. Any thoughts?

Tom Eason

Interesting idea, and one that I think could be applied to domestic hots as well. But who would regulate it, and who would provide the training?
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MichaelB

But, there could be some refinements (and I'm sure you were simply giving a rough idea), but certain species could be blanketed. It comes to mind, for example, in keeping Crotalus durissus. There's nothing more about their husbandry that requires extensive training, aside from obtaining the proper antivenom.

As for the A/V, The SHHS site, has done more than its share in providing keepers the ability to obtain it. On this point, I agree with Terry, if you don't have it, don't keep the snakes, and if you don't possess the inclination or intellect to learn how to fill out the forms, and interpret the regulations, then again, maybe you shouldn't have the snakes.

I think the keeping of venomous snakes by private keepers has a lot of tremendous benefit to conservation as well as research. First off, people will only conserve what they know and the private keepers do a tremenous amount of educational work. Secondly, much of todays taxonomic work involves DNA samples obtained from private keeper's specimens. If the snakes were banned, this would hurt research considerably since there is simply no way a researcher is going to get the $ to go to all the localities, rather than using the scarce grant money to fill in the holes.

Also, where do you think most of the zoo people and researchers go their start? Most of them would have had their own private collection long before they even started accumulating their professional credentials and experience. I am certainly no exception to this. All through my childhood and later years I had an extensive private collection, with venomous coming along in my teens.

I think that anyone over 18 should be able to obtain venomous snakes and that there should be a tiered system. Natives for the first year or two, select exotics after that and then an unlimited license after four or so years of total licensed experience. Further, there should be an annual 100-200 annual surcharge that would be used to fund a regional antivenom bank.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

So basically, everyone here agrees with what was said.
just not everyone is exposed to the degree and tremendous numbers of idiots who own them.
BGF,
What you said is in total agreement to what I always say.
everyone else...
just as clarification, If you read the info about this guy. pray tell me what he would contribute to herpetology?
There needs to be some common sense, not everyone should keep venomous snakes. not everyone should fly F-16 fighter jets, not everyone should be race car driver..
There needs to be a process
Learn first, experience second!
You have to crawl first in order to walk....
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

.
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CB

"expertise is measured by time, but never 100% correct"

Is if in the States where things aren't yet banned, the keepers formally approach parks and wildlife and get the system implemented preemptively. Once things are banned it would be very very difficult to get a different situation in place.

I will be happy to lend my support.

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Australian Venom Research Unit,
University of Melbourne
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Population and Evolutionary Genetics Unit,
Museum Victoria
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.venomdoc.com

I agree with that 199%!!!!!
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

Your second paragraph is exactly what I have been saying all along.
Their is no "elite" whatsoever. They are animals. thats all. fascinating group of animals, but animals none the less. the fact that I work in a zoo only means that I was fortunate enough to work with what I love.
Like I said your second paragraph was very intelligent and well thought out.
If you don't fall into the 95% of people that shouldn't own venomous, then don't take any offence.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

Where does the line be drawn for other reptiles if one would like to see permits, training , the self-available vaccine , etc. I can see this in the states hands but when could it go fed ? Where could this lead to other reptiles like the big carriers of salmonella ( iguanas ) and other bacteria laden species of reptiles. Could one expect the training and permits , the self available medication , be passed for these species as well. Yep > a scenario but......yep > maybe I am comparing apples to oranges here but.....Don't get me wrong. as a keeper of hots for over 30 years I to agree with others about some people just shouldn't be keeping hots. But I don't agree with some of this proposed criteria for us keeping hots or wanting to keep.

Dear Tom...

Have you ever met Terry? I've had the pleasure and he isn't how you assume him to be. You automatically think he is self serving without "looking through his eyes first". Tell me what opinion would you form if you had to mop up after idiots who brashly aquire hot snakes? I bet after a while it would become quite negative. How about the calls he gets from people who's baby retics have grown up and they can't take care of them anymore so they try to hand them off to the gardens? I too think that people should be made to get antivenin. If you aren't willing to pay some extra $$$ then should you really be keeping hots??

The fact is that there have been to many bites and escapes lately and the media play on it. All of the people bitten that have made the news didn't have their own antiserum.
The three steps to keeping venomous should be :
Get Antiserum
Get training
Get animal
Most people are lazy and skip the first two. If you don't have antiserum or an AV Bank within 1 hour drive then you should not keep the snake.
As far as Zoo getting more people thru the gate. Private keepers have a limited effect if any on Zoo attendance.
Private keepers can do good things for conservation and have added to knowledge we have. But just keeping an animal in a cage is not science and that is what many are doing.
Permit systems would be great but keepers have fought them too.
With all the bad PR from some importers and keepers . I don't see anything but bans in the future.
The few times I have voiced my opinion on this site I have been attacked. I have said that negative public image like having no antiserum , freehandling and SI would lead to more laws.
I don't know if we can stop the bans when we don't listen to others and try to head off bad PR.
I have advised on 11 exotic bites this year that didn't make the news. And many more that did. Common thing leading to media coverage was lack of antiserum and a search for it. After each bite a ban has happened or is in the works.

Jim Harrison

Jim SI Is a a technique to HELP SAVE LIFE not to cause any bad press since its perfectly LEGAL.[you know what legal means].
Only YOU and a few others have drummed up negitive ideas on the subject.
I can not think of a single death ever and a lone infection is sometimes a part of the process of modulating a effective innoculaton dose.
We will continue to disagree that is a given but don't
try to constantly bring it up when you have little to no real
experiance with it.
I am calling your bluff on this post just ONE BAD press item on SI to back up your statements not some old peer reviews just one bad press item otherwise well back off.
We will respect you for it.
Other wise We will continue have no respect for you and your short comings.
I have tried to keep this friendly so it will not get deleted.
it was tough.
I wait for you post

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Bud

Bud how do I talk to a man who by computer calls Kristen names. By the way she is finishing her masters and working toward her Phd.
As far as bad press we stopped some . You remember National Geographics shoot with you? All I ask for from you is scientific proof that SI is safe and needed. You have shown me nothing but name calling. I will agree to disagree but the FDA is watching you guys because of your book(I ordered one but never got it is it still in print) and your statements about SI. It is illegal to practice medicine and to help others do so. By the way we are working to start standards for venom production and the FDA says no selling for SI.
Bud come visit me and then we can talk venoms.
I usually do not respond to name calling . Call me sometime Tim has may telephone number from when I refused to sell him venom.

Jim Harrison
Threefinger
By the way lost one to a weight bench .
The others ,I extract from all snakes not just ones that cause mild tissue damage. How many a day do you extract from and how many companies buy from you?
I average 600 to 1000 extractions a week and that includes 30 plus species from all four mambas , Taipans, Fer delance and Mojaves for antiserum. We also extract from Gilas and Beadeds.
Who am I ? I am no one. I am just doing my job and watching the hobby die because of bites, SI and not having antiserum.

First I apologize I have a temper like a mamba and when you guys atacked my work of 30 years I reacted in the wrong way.
so please accept it if you want to.

The nat geo shoot we did cost me a lot to fly across the country to prove myself.
ask you nat geo buddies to review the tape they shot of me injecting a full load from a 6 foot jamesons mamba with no effects not rocket science or voodoo science.
Its as safe as that very simple to do.
Since you admit you shot our film down at least I know why they did not show it even when they gave it good reviews.
no hard feelings realy.
you know the Taboo series is way more freaky than our shoot.

I sat down with a couple federal officers recently and we discussed SI and the future of the hobby they say its perfectly legal as long as you don't break the law they told me has bill hasst never been arrestd for SI? As for tims book he has a legal advisor so its all gonna be legit its his baby .
Tim was sceptical like you me and him argued and such but he was interested and flew down here to see for himself and was amazed when I injected fresh milked venoms from several different species.
From there he was on his own and has done very well.
I am very carefull not to break any fda rules.
And am ready to defend myself from accusations legaly.
I don't know why tim would buy venom when he produces his own.
Self administerd alergy shots are very common and far from illegal.
Some day If we are still around I would like to see your
facility.
I have a new secure inspected licensed lab and keep mambas crotalus vipers cobras gilas....done them all except sea snakes and the inland taipan over my 30 years doing this.
I do not sell or give away venom milking snakes only as needed as getting bit hurts as you know.
Mojaves are my specialty I stay away from necrotic snakes.
I still think si is a gateway to further research leading to simple a innoculation like a flu shot but its still in the works.
ps I also sometimes snake hunt barefooted a little risky but its
just the way I like to do it. I hope you and kristen accept
my apologie and have a good life together
its late and I deleted my first reply so this is a second one

Bud how do I talk to a man who by computer calls Kristen names. By the way she is finishing her masters and working toward her Phd.
As far as bad press we stopped some . You remember National Geographics shoot with you? All I ask for from you is scientific proof that SI is safe and needed. You have shown me nothing but name calling. I will agree to disagree but the FDA is watching you guys because of your book(I ordered one but never got it is it still in print) and your statements about SI. It is illegal to practice medicine and to help others do so. By the way we are working to start standards for venom production and the FDA says no selling for SI.
Bud come visit me and then we can talk venoms.
I usually do not respond to name calling . Call me sometime Tim has may telephone number from when I refused to sell him venom.

Jim Harrison
Threefinger
By the way lost one to a weight bench .
The others ,I extract from all snakes not just ones that cause mild tissue damage. How many a day do you extract from and how many companies buy from you?
I average 600 to 1000 extractions a week and that includes 30 plus species from all four mambas , Taipans, Fer delance and Mojaves for antiserum. We also extract from Gilas and Beadeds.
Who am I ? I am no one. I am just doing my job and watching the hobby die because of bites, SI and not having antiserum.
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Bud

***As far as bad press we stopped some. You remember National Geographic's shoot with you?***

I've had you pegged for that little hatchetjob for quite some time now. In your arrogance, as well as ignorance, you did the venomous hobby a DISservice, not a service. It would've been better if you had kept your mouth shut, let the presentation be shown, and let people make up their own minds about self-inoculation. So the miniscule number of people practicing SI are contributing to the current state of the venomous hobby, huh? ROTFLMAO! Since when is it bad press just because you don't agree with it? You're a joke, pal. I don't care if you were milking the snakes on Noah's Ark. You accomplished two things with your cronies at NGeo: (1) illustrating how utterly
gutless that outfit is, and (2) showing what a sneaky backstabber you can be when you think someone might be stealing your thunder. By no means do I hope you have a nice day.

Sincerely,
Bill Huseth

All I told NG was to talk to real herpetologistsand doctors . They did and decide not to air the segment which was shown as Snakebite. It was a bad segment on how no one should have snakes and they misquoted me several times. But the producer wanted to show keepers in a bad light. You can say what you want about me . You have your right to your opinion.

Bud thanks for the apology about the statement on Kristen. I would like to talk to you in person . With good science you can change my opinion. Also as an adult you have a right to do to yourself what you wish. But as I have said before kids and Feds are watching so careful should be the path you walk. Also I thing Taboo would be a good show for SI . But with both sides of the debate giving evidence.

Bill I wish you a good day.

Jim Harrison

I wondered how long this thread could go before someone became a little big for their britches and picked a fight.
Just so you know Bill, if someone was on NOAH's ARK, extracting venoms. I would show a tremendous amount of respect for that person. They would be pretty experienced by now....
Maybe give that some thought.
And maybe because others think differently than you doesn't mean they might not have a good point! maybe a little more thinking and a little less typing is in order.....
Just a thought.
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

It means rolling on the floor laughing my a$$ off. You wrote the book on being "big for their britches", Terry. I'd have thought most people of intelligence wouldn't have taken my "Noah's Ark" reference literally. Maybe you're the one needing to give things some thought before you go shooting your mouth off. And as far as me needing to do "less typing and more thinking", I thought my previous post over very carefully before posting, and stand behind every word. If I ever feel I need your approval before posting here, I'll be sure to ask. NOT.

Bill Huseth

My intent was to spark intelligent dialogue. I think responsible and fair legislation at the federal level is the only answer. The private sector can no more "police" the problem keepers than anyone else at the moment. I have someone in my state that keeps very deadly Australian elapids without av. Although I wish he would not do so, more so because I do not want anything bad to happen to him, he is not breaking any laws. Until the laws are changed this kind of thing will continue. I know that if he were to envenomated and die my rights will more than likely be taken away or severely limited at the least. Whats to do then? The days of someone showing off a king cobra in the living room has got to be brought to and end. I believe that a national organization for the responsible keeping of venomous reptiles should be constructed. This group would work with authorities to establish guidlines and licensing procedures not unlike I spelled out in my last post. It is very true that we must all work together to make this work. There will be legislation in the future but its up to us what type that will be. Terry, I meant no offense in my first post. I was only trying to make a point.

Tom Eason