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I personally don't feel that either the pure black patternless boa or the purple patternless are the "Super" version of the Motley. The main reason why I feel this way is that even though they have been produced by breeding Motley x Motley I believe they have both also been produced from breeding Motley to Normal(please correct me if I am wrong). That being the case, I feel this theory is impossible. As we all know in a Co-Dominant gene such as the Hypo you need to have a gene on both sides of the breeding to produce "Supers" thus blowing the "Super" theory out the window. I feel what may be happeneng here is that there are more genetics "hiding" within the Motley gene than we all know, and that these are all just seperate new morphs. I also think that maybe the Motley gene works similar to the Spider gene in BP's where the only way to tell a Super from a Co-Dom is by breeding trials and not apperance. Meaning that a Super Motley and a Co-Dom Motley both look similar and just carry different genetics. This would explain why there are such a small amount of "Supers" that have been produces so far. These are just some theorys that I have been working on and thought they might be a good conversation starter. Again I am in know way an expert on Motley genetics and maybe Jeremy or others have some insite that will blow my opinions out of the water. The one thing I do know is that Motleys are the most exciting Boa morph out there right now bar none.

"Wow, WHAT a morning! Finally something I REALLY wanted to post! Found my CA Motley x CA Motley litter this morning.
What did I find???"

So that animal is 'obviously' a super/homozygous/dominant.

Never know, nature coulda had one over on us, twice.

I think jeremey's FIRST purple patternless/super colombian motley was a FLUKE. STATISTICLY shouldnt have happened. But did. The punet square is based on probability, but long shots happen. No reason it couldnt. Out of the realm of PROBABILITY, not POSSIBILITY.

The second, and sadly dead, batch, came from a Colombian motley X colombian motley... and there were a few of the purple patternless.... lines up to the punet square probability of het X het as far as i can tell.

Alex's black motley came from CA motley X CA motley, i believe it's a super, without a doubt.
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recycle your pets

I am not sure if the black and purple boas are super motleys or not. However it would make sense in many ways that the motley gene which is codominant could have a recessive part to it leading to the very small number of "super motleys" born per litter aka black and purple. It would also make sense to me that a super motley would look very similar to a motley, as in the case between salmons and super salmons. I guess we will all just have to wait until these so called "super motleys" are bred to prove that they indeed are supers. My .02 is that it is a hidden recessive gene intermixed within the codominant or incomplete dominance gene of the motley. Id like to add that either way it turns out it is very, very exciting to watch.

Just my .02

Bob

I think all those points are valid, and no doubt the fun has really just begun. I just hope I can purchase a Motley of my own soon.

np.

Hello,

Just a quick correction on the Breeding in 04. This is the first year I bred a Motley female, and the Female Motley that gave birth to that premature dead baby litter was a Hypo Motley. I bred a Motley Male to the Female Hypo Motley. (Columbian) I got 3 Purple Patternless (Supers) and one Hypo Purple Patternless. There were 2 dead normals too. This is in the picture Above.

I agree exactly with what obz said. Good points. It has happened before in a few other Mutations. It hapened with a Tiger Retic. So, I'm sure that it was FLUKE, but it happened. The first one that I hope to breed this fall was a Fluke. I wonder if it is going to be dominant though.

After I saw the babies this year that were dead, I was confident that this IS what the Super Motley is.

When I saw Alex's boa, and saw how very similar it was to the "super" from the Columbian Motley, I was quite Confident that the SUPER motley is the Patternless Boas. Yes, we do need to do some breedings to make SURE, but I am very confident that the Super Motley is the Black and purple patternless. I could be wrong, as I have been many times in the past, but this is just my thoughts.

Also to Robert. I have breed Two Motley siblings to a Motley and got nothing but 1/2 litters of Motleys. So, I don't think anything is tagging along in recessive form. That is a great theory though. Could be true. Look at all the wild stuff happening with the Platium Ball ball python. You are right in the fact that we really won't know 100 percent that the Patternless Boas are the SUPER untill we breed them to normals and get ALL Motleys.

Great Topic. Either way, these Motleys are producing some very interesting stuff. They are a very fun Morph to work with and I feel very lucky to have them. Any other thoughts or theories? Take Care, Jeremy Stone

BTW, this picture was taken a few hours after they were born, and the skin was dried up. I tried to moist it, but you can get the idea. The Hypo Patternless was VERY Shocking to see.

I would think those are supers, the CA and colombian versions are totaly unrelated and producing a similar dominant form. I don't know if the fist purple pattenless will be dominant, but may just look like the dominant form. Just like having a litter of co-dominant hypos and having one that looks like a super, it happens every now and again. I think this has also brought some promise to some of the other co-dominant pattern morphs with similar qualitys like the arabesque. No one has produced a super arabesque as far as I know, I would geuss the super form will be very similar to the super motley.
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Ed Lilley, www.constrictorsnw.com

i understand that people tend to be reserved at calling "new" genetics a certain thing untill they are proved out by the necissary breedings. and that is how it SHOULD be...as to not be pre-mature...especially if your going to buy a super "anything" for MAJOR cash...and it turns out to be just another variartion of the co-dom gene.

also, some breeders are ignorant as to how the genetics game is played and any abberant boa that pops out is all of a sudden a jungle. for ex...the "american" jungles. persinally i would LOVE it to prove out genetic just like the swedish line, however that breeder, no matter how many times he was asked to do so, has never substantiated his claims of it being genetic by offering a list of breeding trials. and might make some big bucks from people who will waste two or more years keeping it, breeding it, and getting nothing but a bunch of normals. if he is doing this intentionaly or not is anyones guess but that is just my point for why we SHOULD wait a bit before calling something a certain genetic...ALTHOUGH i am ABSOLUTLEY confident that the patternless motleys are in fact supers even though one has not yet been bred to a normal to officially prove it out.

my resons for that is, these supers have been produced by two completely diff boa types...the colombian motley and the central american motley...and in both cases the motley gene is still consistent.

to adresse the first point, there have been many cases of dominant animals popping out of a co-dom x normal litter. this isnt an unheard of anomily. there have been tiger retics bred to normals and super tigers pop out. same with salmons...etc.

jeremy did produce one of those supers from a motley x normal breeding...that fella is now two years old and i am guessing he will prove out this upcomming season.

so there will always be questions as to these patternless motleys being supers untill the are proved out...as there should be...but with these unique circumstances with the motleys i would gladly write 30k check for one of those bad boys even before they are "officially" proved out. however, currently i cant afford that...so what do you say Alex...i'll give you a pack of cigarretts, my pet cat, a 92 civic and a firm handshake for your SUPER ca motley hahaha

i am always pleased to see these questions pop up becuase they educate potential victims of scams as well as publicly confirm certain genetic. so big props to you brother. later, Nick

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motley pic

So far the opinions about the Super Motleys are base upon four breedings as far as I know.

1)Motley X Normal = Purple
2)Motley X Motley Sib = no Purple
3)Motley X Motley Sib = no Purple
4)Moltey X Motley = Purple

I realize that there are a lot of Co-Dominant genes that have been discovered in Boas. Some produce visual Supers and some Genetic Supers. There are also several recessive genes that have been discovered in boas as well.

Based upon the breedings above absolutely nothing is known except that the genetics for a Purple Boa exist and it is producible.

The first breeding of a Motley X Normal has two possibilities. The first possibility is extremely rare and almost unheard of. A Super being produced from a Co-dominant X Normal. The second is that both parents were carrying a recessive gene that produced the Purple, which is very common.

The breedings between the Motley X Motley Siblings proves nothing at all. If the Purple is a Super Motley then of course no Purples would be produced. If one of the parents was not carrying a recessive gene that caused the Purple Boa then no Purples would be produced. The results would be the same in either case.

Since the Motleys were started with one Boa and if it was carrying a recessive gene, then it would only pass that gene onto half of its offspring. Only 50% of the offspring would carry the recessive gene. Further breedings of these offspring would result in even fewer odds of the recessive gene being pasted on.

If the gene causing the Purple Boa is recessive, it would be total chance matings of any Motley or Motley Siblings that would produce the Purple Boa, because the chances that a Motley or Motley Sibling was carrying the recessive gene would be the same.

Four breedings is basically nothing to base much of an opinion on. Unfortunately the odds of producing a Super or a recessive morph are the same and the results from the above breedings could be caused by either one. Until a Purple Boa is bred to completely unrelated normal we will not know or if a Purple is bred to a Motley then most of the clutch should be Motleys and quite a few Purples too. Even then, the ODDS GODS, can really play tricks on us. You could breed two recessive hets together and get all Homo recessives. You could also breed a Homo recessive to a Het recessive and get no Homo recessives at all, but in both of these cases the odds are better than a Super being produced from a Motley bred to a Normal.

The CA Motley could either add or subtract from the possibilities of the gene being a Super or recessive. I will not be surprised if many of the CA and CO recessive and Co-Dominant genes prove to be compatible. I am surprise that basically none of them have been tested against each other to find out. The CA and CO are very similar in the big scheme of things in Mother Nature.

If I was to guess if the Purple is the Super Motley I would guess “YES”, but based upon what we know so far it would be a total guess. I would not be making any suggestive claims one way or another.

In the long run, it wont really matter. If it is recessive they will be able to be produced like Albinos in significant numbers eventually. In the short run, if a Purple is a Super then it will speed things up and you will be looking at Motleys instead of Normal hets which would be desirable.
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Joe Pierce
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