Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Ive been thinking a lot about what people really want in an Eastern King and what’s the main attraction when it comes to Locality versus Generic. The reason I’m interested is because I’m thinking of along with locality animals breeding localities and generics together. I will still breed locality animals but why not use some locale males on other female’s etc… One of my goals is to create a line of large (5’+ on average but upwards of 6’) thin crossbared Easterns that have super white chains and a nice deep ground color. Now to do this (regarding size) I would have to bring some southern blood into the mix but there are some larger northern locale animals out there i.e. Thomas Davis’ Big NJ Eastern and Bob Bull’s big male MD locale animal. My other Goal would be to create med-wide banded Giant Easterns with nice deep yellow chains as well as white chains. This one will probably be easier in a sense that a lot of animals from the south have wide chains and the yellow color seems to be naturally there as well. Don’t misunderstand what I’m thinking of doing I don’t want the Eastern King to be the next Cal King or Cornsnake but to have “natural looking” animals that are what people see as the ideal Eastern.

Questions for the King Forum Folks

What most attracts you to an Eastern color? Size? Locality? A mixture of these?
Is locality more important over appearance?

Do people simply want a pretty Eastern or are they more interested in the intrinsic value of a locality animal?

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My preference is for thin chains on blue-black background. As a field biologist I appreciate locality animals for the evolutionary determined traits they possess. However, I intend on breeding different localities together in an effort to establish a line of thin banded easterns with perfect patterns lacking broken chains. I think the Maryland and New Jersey animals hold great promise for that goal. The other aspect that intriques me is moving the orange coloration of Will Still and Kevin Enge's southern Georgia animals into the thin chained northern lines. Adding that orange color into the albino stock should produce some stunning easterns.

I would not be put off by non-locality easterns as long as they are presented accurately by the breeder as non-locality. It seems like we are in the begining stages of eastern morph breeding (for pattern, color, and size) and each of the eastern breeders are selecting stock based on their personal ideal of what these animals should look like.

At what point, F2,3,4 does the influence of the breeder (on selection of keepers) override locality status? At some point I think we have to seriously consider that locality is meaningless after a line is captively bred for generations. The artificial selection of the breeder becomes more significant than the natural selection that produced the original animals.

People are already looking to buy Will Still's line or the Enge line or they want Hillson's snakes, etc. Sometimes the product from a good breeder is locality enough.

I hope I made some sense in this ramble,
Bob Bull

"At what point, F2,3,4 does the influence of the breeder (on selection of keepers) override locality status? At some point I think we have to seriously consider that locality is meaningless after a line is captively bred for generations. The artificial selection of the breeder becomes more significant than the natural selection that produced the original animals."

Bob your above statement is very much a mark I have never before seen hit upon. I have just actually sold off over half of our so stated locale specific herps keeping what I consider only the morphs. After doing this for over 30 years I found it hard to base anything any longer on specific locale myself since so many hands and attitudes have taken their personal toll in the continued existance of many of these lines. Although fun to work with it was getting hard to even prove their existance to anyone when eggs started to hatch. Most basically termed them non-specific because of the age of the captive line itself.

Off topic here but for me it was ALWAYS easier to move any relatively new morph then say a natural occurring herp of the same type. That is until for the most part the market is flooded with the new morph leaving some to then go back to their roots in acquiring natural occurring forms. For example, back in the 80's while living in NY we could not give CB chain kings away. Seems more interest now in these yet not many can be found of any specific locale in decent numbers. Kind of like South Florida kings today yet brooksi morphs are in many collections. Try to find a nice pure one of those today.

Rich Hebron

Rich if you haven't heard that point before you haven't been listening!

or reading.......New band wagon for you Tony?

Nope, same one just another venue!

Or possibly just an adaptation of another's view you use to debate against that you have now assumed as originally yours? All this should be familiar as it was views presented in other forums that you were apart of years ago. Views you were so strongly personal on. Enough with the one line wonders in fallacy here. At least have a premise to your conclusions where we you have accoutability........ Good start would be to state your FULL name to any future one line wonders so others can remember you down the line when you do it again.

Not another venue, just another forum. Lighten up a bit as to most this is just a hobby. Not an ego trip like it is to so many others here.

Rich Hebron

I didn't say I originated the thought. First I ever heard if was from Gerry B. over three years ago. Ya see Rich, this is where things go wrong with you and I. You make assumptions I point that out and next thing I know I'm getting called names.

I don't see a problem with breeding different localities together in order to acheive a certain look. While it is great that the average herper has become interested in locality data and trying to breed animals from the same locality to keep "pure" blood lines, it can be taken too far, like anything else. As long as the animals are represented as mixed locality or unknown locality, there shouldn't be a problem. In the end, a pretty Eastern is a pretty Eastern. To turn your nose up at an animal because it of mixed localities or unknown locality would be pretty dumb. Certainly, it is worthwhile to keep producing locality specific animals, but to mix it up in order to produce more attractive animals shouldn't be a problem either. Just my opinion.

Todd

a nice eastern is a nice eastern regardless of locale,,locale breeding is a good thing but it can turn into a bad thing as w/any line breeding,that being said as long as locale info is availible(&100¬curate)i see no probs if its not said animal should be recognized as non-locale animal and represented as such,i as an eastern lover just love'um all locale info or not and its always been my opinion breeding for traits ,thinbands,widebands,size,etc is a great thing! and line/locale breeding can be cool also,as long as new genes are introduced every few generations but imho its the look regardless of locale thats what makes the snake!,,,great topic!
the pic is from last year its from a nc male to a sc female unknown counties its sibs were sold/represented as nonlocale easterns
getula rule!
unfortunately either my sc eastern girl this year either ate her eggs or never was pregnant i witnessed copulation several times,but she is a pig and i think she may have ate them or they just didnt take, oilwell nextyear ya'know
happily i did get eggs from s.blacks(l.g.nigra)hatched,and,prarieking(l.c.calligaster)soon to hatch!,mixed caliking,soon to hatch,pueblanmilks(l.t.campbelli)hatching soon,and tx.ratsnakes(e.o.lindeheimrei)hatching soon and an interesting intergrade between l.g.yumensisXl.g.holbrooki,that have hatched and look basically like l.g.splendida,i will get pics soon hopefully(i dont beleive i will sell any but if i was to they would be sold as yumensisXholbrooki NOT splendida
honesty is what its all about!!!
and honestly I LOVE KINGS!!!
i beleive ive rambled enough now
peace
thomas davis

Agree with one small deviation. Why list something as generic? If locality isn't specified isn't "generic" status assumed?

Tony you know what they say about people assuming things lol. I personally wouldnt leave it to doubt and just list it as what it is. Also there all always new people coming into the hobby and they would understand the term "Generic" better than "Non Locale". I personally prefer the term "Non Locale" but use them both equally. One thing I will do is give up my ingredients as to what went into these as much as I know as well.

Keith
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I think its gotten to the point that to use the word assume is always a poor choice. LOL! I still however do not agree with the need to label stock as generic. Generally, breeders have been crossing localities from the beginning and little data has been passed down until recently. To say that the majority of captive stock is non-locality would be a fairly safe statement. IMHO generic or non-locality is the default status of captive stock unless otherwise labeled. This is a point of issue with me because there remains a core group of locality enthusiasts who don’t miss a shot at denigrating stock that isn’t locality. Calling them “good as hybrids” comes to mind. The numbers of people who feel they have been unjustly ridiculed by the locality nuts (not my word) are growing and I’m not sure if this isn’t the reason you initiated this thread? I’ve many time seen statements indicating that you can’t trust a guy that does both (locality and non-locality). In any case, labeling animals as locality crosses or generics in my view justifies such tactics.

Well actually that wasn't my reasoning for the post and I havent encountered any "Locality Nuts" so far at least to the point that you mention. I have no doubt there are those who feel that way, my guess the majority of them come from the Alterna Group where locality is taken to the extreme. I would also guess the "Locality Nuts" are a small group and not refelective to the herping cummunity as a whole. Dont get me wrong I love locality animals but Im not shortsighted enough to exclude other animals (except hybrids). I surely wasnt testing the waters to see if I would be ridiculed by the "LN" lol but merely to see what the interest was in Non Locale animals. This is the second time in the last few weeks someone has asked me if I was trying to get a different point or a message across via a post lol. If I had an issue such as the one you bought up I would simply post my thoughts on it as I dont operate like that.

Keith
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"Locality Nuts" isn't really my term (got it from KJUN on th epit forum) but they haven't been real prevalent on this forum. Milk and pit forums can be pretty bad though not nearly so of late. Locality for the alterna crew seems to be more of a collecting thing, which as a coastal plains milk enthusiast I can fully identify with. Should have known better than to guess about your motivations without asking. Sorry.

Clearly from the responses to some of the pics you have posted there are two schools of thought in easterns -

- some love the narrow banded forms
- others (like me) love the wide banded snakes that Will Still and Kevin Enge have from southern GA.

If I was going to breed easterns in any number, I would try to maintain the best of several lines. Clearly size is an attraction in easterns, so I would try and produce 6 footers in each lineage. I would like to breed -

- narrow-banded northerns
- wide banded GA snakes
- wide banded stark black and white snakes like those I have seen from the VA Beach area
- although I don't like them, I guess you could also breed Edisto Island and Outer Banks strains as well.

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Chris Harrison

I have been in your situation many times in the past. Being that you probably can not get specific locale herps to match up with what you already have has lead many to do just what you are asking about doing yourself. You already have some stock that you can not pair up but want to keep and yet have no other use for if you stay with your current frame of mind. Makes sense to breed them with whatever else you can get so that they still have a purpose in your collection. You say not to recreate what has transpired with CA Kings and Corns but then again isn't that what many did with these same herps during their infancy? Did it develop or take away from their popularity? I can ascertain not many at all are complaining about demand for them today.

New things or variations of old things is what apparently has been keeping this hobby going for the masses. No matter how anyone sugar coats it, it is just another attempt to supply a possibly future demand of something that is no longer held preferrable to what already existed. Personally it looks to me your have hit a revelation or reality that many keepers have hit before you.

The question both sides of the field always face in my opinion comes down to a simple question. What is next?

Rich Hebron

My comments toward Cals and Corns are inreference to the tons of deformed Corns I see sold at shows as feeders and as far as Cal Kings I would bet if you just purchased 10 Cal Kings 80% of them would be het for Albino. I dont ant Easterns to be that way when I purchase an Eastern as a normal I want just that no recessive mutations. Some breeders just sell tons of Clutches that contain all sorts of mutations to the bigger wholesalers and then out they go to the public. So far Easterns are sort of untouched by this but with popularity these things seem to change.

Keith

>>I have been in your situation many times in the past. Being that you probably can not get specific locale herps to match up with what you already have has lead many to do just what you are asking about doing yourself. You already have some stock that you can not pair up but want to keep and yet have no other use for if you stay with your current frame of mind. Makes sense to breed them with whatever else you can get so that they still have a purpose in your collection. You say not to recreate what has transpired with CA Kings and Corns but then again isn't that what many did with these same herps during their infancy? Did it develop or take away from their popularity? I can ascertain not many at all are complaining about demand for them today.
>>
>>New things or variations of old things is what apparently has been keeping this hobby going for the masses. No matter how anyone sugar coats it, it is just another attempt to supply a possibly future demand of something that is no longer held preferrable to what already existed. Personally it looks to me your have hit a revelation or reality that many keepers have hit before you.
>>
>>The question both sides of the field always face in my opinion comes down to a simple question. What is next?
>>
>>Rich Hebron
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I just like good looking Easterns and don't care much about locality. As long as it looks good then I would keep it. I work with many kinds of snakes and I only know the locality info on my pair of Easterns.
I think looks are everything. I would want a thin chained animal that has a jet black to blue background and ivory white chains that stay white through life. Wider chained animals are nice too. I don't really care about the size as the Eastern Kings get to be a nice size anyway. The red color from southern locales really don't do anything for me. From the pics I like New Jersey, Maryland, and North Carolina animals the best.
Keith, keep me posted on which animals you will be pairing up next year if you don't mind.

Thanks,
Dan

Hi Keith,

Personally, I am fascinated with locality animals as much as some morphs.
In some cases, especialy with endangered species I feel that we own them to breed locality animals, to keep them as the nature created them, because the ones we have may be soon all that are left in the world.
With not endangered species, situation in my opinion is a bit different. It is great to know locality data of the animals we have. But on the other hand, when animal is beautifull - there is nothing wrong with breeding them with other locaities, as long as we are not hybrydising them (that's complete different story).
This gives much more genetic diversity.

From my point of view - I live in quite remote place, so getting true locality kingsnakes is virtually impossible here - that is the only way to work with these creatures.

Best regards
Lukasz
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snakes.pl

I’m putting my two cents in a little late but here goes. I think when trying to develop a “single” trait it is best to work within a single locality. If you like thin bands stick to working with a single locality that largely manifests that trait. My reservation to crossing would be that the underlying genetics that causes thin bands might not be the same across localities making the cross counter productive. The concept might be total bull but why waste the time and effort? To me it just makes more sense to extract what you want from a given set of genes. It reduces the variables. This of course goes in the trash if what you want isn’t found within a single gene pool.