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My Beardie Lost His Friendliness

soulp97 Jul 11, 2004 02:14 AM

hi,

My beardie, Luca, is a little over a year old now. He's grown immensely since i've had him. I've always made an effort to handle him frequently and let him run about the house now and then. He's always been very easy going and has never shown any signs of aggression.

Recently, every time i take him out of his cage and sit him on my lap, he immediately blackens his beard and starts head banging hardcore.

I've read that this behavior is usually a sign of aggression. It sure looks like it to me. He hasn't snapped at me yet...but mainly because i put him back right away when he starts acting like this.

Is the black beard and head banging a definite sign of aggression?

I appreciate any input...

Thanks,
Jon Z.

Replies (13)

dsgngrl Jul 11, 2004 11:01 AM

Sounds normal, he is becoming sexually mature and feeling his oats, so to speak. He will probably go back to being normal soon.
-----

tresa56 Jul 11, 2004 03:19 PM

Get him a woman.

kephy Jul 11, 2004 03:29 PM

Ugh! No one should breed animals unless they are 100% prepared and experienced. The bearded dragon gene pool is a sensitive thing right now, and there are way too many people carelessly adding to it because they think their lizards are lonely.

Let him be randy, it's no big deal and it won't kill him, but don't "get him a woman" unless you are ready to deal with the huge time, space, and financial responsibility of doing it right.
-----
Amanda
------------
2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

tresa56 Jul 11, 2004 03:40 PM

When someone takes on a male beardie they should be prepared for that in the first place. If someone does not want to or is not prepared to breed they should get two females. The dragon did not do anything wrong why should he be in solitary confinement.

kephy Jul 11, 2004 03:46 PM

Are you saying male beardie only exist for breeding? That they cannot possibly have a full and happy life without a female? I'm sorry, but that's just not true.

In fact, many of the experienced people here will tell you that if you are only going to get one dragon, get a male, because they do very well on their own and have less chances of medical complications from lack of breeding than females.

I have two males. Both live in their own enclosures and neither have access to females. Sure they go through a season of breeding desires, but they get over it and trust me they are not suffering for it. They get plenty of attention from me and my fiance, and the are very healthy and happy.
-----
Amanda
------------
2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

tresa56 Jul 11, 2004 03:50 PM

Just like people need people, beardies need beardies and I am experianced.

kephy Jul 11, 2004 04:15 PM

Saying that the only way to keep beardies happy is to house them in pairs goes against everything I've ever learned about them. I am experienced too, and I've spent a great deal of the last three years researching proper husbandry for them, and I've never until now come across anyone other than pet stores or breeders trying to make an extra sale take the position of "beardies need to be housed in pairs or they aren't happy."

Trust me, my two males are very well cared for, get lots of attention, and are living the life of luxery. They are not suffering because they don't have any other beardies to hang out with. There are dozens and dozens of people on this forum who house their beardies alone and all these animals are loved, happy, and thriving. To say that keeping them alone is cruel is to accuse about 80% of this forum of cruelty, and you won't have very many folks here agree with you.

I'm not going to continue arguing with you on that subject, I've said my peace. It's obvious I won't change your mind, and you certainly are not going to change mine so let's leave it at that.

I only have one last thing to say.

You say when someone houses a male and a female together they should be prepared for breeding in the first place. While I agree whole-heartedly, that just isn't the case. Far too often people house a male with a female with absolutely ZERO preparedness for that sort of thing, and when it happens they have no clue what to do about it. I've met a guy who would allow his female to become gravid, only to let the eggs die because he didn't care to raise them. I've met people who had a brother and sister housed together that were inbreeding and didn't think twice that it might be a bad thing. I wish that people would be responsible and prepared for that sort of thing, but they just aren't. It is up to the people who know better to educate them. To tell them housing males and females is perfectly fine, while assuming they already know all the proper responsibilities that go with it, is the reason those terrible things happen in the first place. It doesn't take but a few extra moments to give some words of advice on the subject so that they know what to expect.
-----
Amanda
------------
2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

NorwegianDragon Jul 12, 2004 02:28 AM

Reading all of tresa56's posts leads me to believe that this person is nothing but a so-called "forum-troll", spreading disinformation just for the heck of it. It's really bad taste, in my opinion. Especially since we're talking about actual living creatures here.

wideglide Jul 12, 2004 10:50 AM

>>Just like people need people, beardies need beardies and I am experianced.

The only reason beardies need beardies is to breed, plain and simple.

I'm not sure where you are getting your ideas about beardies needing to be in a social atmosphere. It seems to me you are trying to relate too much of beardie behavior to human behavior, which is completely an inexperienced and foolish thing to do. It's important you understand wild animals differ from us in many, many ways even if it just doesn't seem right.

Take a cheetah for instance. How's their social life between female and male? Well here's how it happens. The male courts and mates with the female for about a week. After that's done the male leaves and the female is left to raise the cheetah cub by herself and guess what? The male doesn't go back the the local "Cheetah Club" and have a few beers with his buddies, he goes off by himself. The next time he encounters a willing female he'll mate with her and the process starts over.

Take a lion now. Male lions will eat the cubs of a female from a different pride so she'll be ready to mate sooner and pass his genes along.

Many snakes, when they give birth, have nothing to do what so ever with their offspring. The minute the offspring are born they are on their own.

I could give you many more examples of different types of behavior that would probably be difficult for you to grasp but hopefully you get the idea. I only say they may be difficult for you to grasp because of your current ideas on beardies.

If you are a troll and are only in this forum to make trouble then I suggest you crawl back into the hole you popped out of. If you're not trying to make trouble forget the previous statement and follow this one instead. Next time you give advice make sure you know what you are talking about because you obviously have been either misinformed or have interpreted your experience with beardies incorrectly.
-----
Rob Talkington

PoconoParrot Jul 12, 2004 12:35 PM

The reptile brain: this consists of the olfactostriatum, corpus striatum, globus pallidus and satellite connections.
The reptile brain controls basic survival instincts: fight-or-flight, hunger, territoriality, ritual and challenge displays. The reptile brain, by itself, may or may not permit herd behavior, but interaction in the herd would be reduced to functioning within a pecking order. Newcomers to a territory, held by members of their own species, have only two options: fight or move on.

The mammal brain: made up primarily of the limbic system (also found in birds).
The mammal brain makes possible pleasure, the maternal instinct, love, and compassion, all of our higher emotions. The limbic system makes it possible for herd interaction to go beyond the pecking order. Herd members care about each other, groom each other, look out for each other, and may even put their own lives on the line for the protection of the herd. The mammal brain allows a level of conflict resolution. Newcomers to a territory, when they persist in their efforts, may eventually be accepted as members and even friends. It makes possible a tactile sensitivity that allows the individual, in grooming, to tune in to what the groomee is experiencing. Pleasure is not just subjective; it can be interactive and even empathic.

The human brain: the neocortex.
This, of course, is where our real problem solving and tool-making abilities reside. The neocortex allows us to organize information into concepts, represent them with symbols, and manipulate them in ways that not only give us practical advantages, but can also give meaning to our lives and actions. In cooperation with the limbic system, it also makes it possible to function, socially, completely outside of the pecking order.

First, let's look at a lizard's brain. It was one of the first steps to a central nervous system over something I will refer to as fused ganglia. Fused ganglia is a dense area of nerves that was a precursor to a central nervous system. Fused ganglia is commonly found in insects. Fused ganglia is found along the mid section back of an insect or where you would assume a spine would be if they had one. Besides heartbeat and other automated bodily functions (reflexes), fused ganglia offers instinct only! Eat, breed, social interaction (basic non adaptive), and response to external stimuli.

The lizard brain is not that much advanced. Without overcomplicating the issue with the Amygdala, Thalamus, and the Hypothalamus; I would have to state that the brain of a lizard is so simple, it is not self aware. It had the most basic functions with a few higher functions over fused ganglia.

These more advanced functions of a lizard's brain would also include social interaction. Don't misinterpret the term social interaction with what we know it as. It's more advanced brain would add territorial aggression and fighting. Remember that there is NO frontal lobe in a lizard. It has no idea why it fights. It has no idea that it is breeding. It's responses to outside stimulation (pain) is fully automated. BUT, it can adapt to outside stimulation. If you were to walk into a room with a bucket of cricket’s everyday at 3PM, the lizard does not know that you are walking in with a bucket of crickets, but has associated the action with food. Some misinterpret this as cognitive thought. This is very basic association to external stimuli.

Now to get to the statement of "being cruel". Lizards do not know the concept of being cruel. Lizards do not cuddle. Cuddling is something that advanced mammals are capable of. Lizards are not self aware and certainly are not aware that there is a female next to them. If anything, they would only display the automated breeding or fighting response offered by its limited brain functions. Your lizard does not love you or care for you. If you sold it tomorrow, other then an adjustment period to its new surroundings, you would be forgotten the second you handed it over. Lizards do not have emotions. Lizards do not think.

Keeping a lizard by itself eliminates the possibility of injury because of its territorial aggression response. It has no need for companionship. It does not feel lonely or bored. If it bites you, it does not hate you. Emotions are beyond its capability. If it were aware for a second of any cognitive thought, it would appreciate the fact that you gave full use of your own frontal lobe and provided safety for it and not imposed your own higher brain functions on it.

wideglide Jul 13, 2004 12:29 PM

>>The reptile brain: this consists of the olfactostriatum, corpus striatum, globus pallidus and satellite connections.
>>The reptile brain controls basic survival instincts: fight-or-flight, hunger, territoriality, ritual and challenge displays. The reptile brain, by itself, may or may not permit herd behavior, but interaction in the herd would be reduced to functioning within a pecking order. Newcomers to a territory, held by members of their own species, have only two options: fight or move on.
>>
>>The mammal brain: made up primarily of the limbic system (also found in birds).
>>The mammal brain makes possible pleasure, the maternal instinct, love, and compassion, all of our higher emotions. The limbic system makes it possible for herd interaction to go beyond the pecking order. Herd members care about each other, groom each other, look out for each other, and may even put their own lives on the line for the protection of the herd. The mammal brain allows a level of conflict resolution. Newcomers to a territory, when they persist in their efforts, may eventually be accepted as members and even friends. It makes possible a tactile sensitivity that allows the individual, in grooming, to tune in to what the groomee is experiencing. Pleasure is not just subjective; it can be interactive and even empathic.
>>
>>The human brain: the neocortex.
>>This, of course, is where our real problem solving and tool-making abilities reside. The neocortex allows us to organize information into concepts, represent them with symbols, and manipulate them in ways that not only give us practical advantages, but can also give meaning to our lives and actions. In cooperation with the limbic system, it also makes it possible to function, socially, completely outside of the pecking order.
>>
>>First, let's look at a lizard's brain. It was one of the first steps to a central nervous system over something I will refer to as fused ganglia. Fused ganglia is a dense area of nerves that was a precursor to a central nervous system. Fused ganglia is commonly found in insects. Fused ganglia is found along the mid section back of an insect or where you would assume a spine would be if they had one. Besides heartbeat and other automated bodily functions (reflexes), fused ganglia offers instinct only! Eat, breed, social interaction (basic non adaptive), and response to external stimuli.
>>
>>The lizard brain is not that much advanced. Without overcomplicating the issue with the Amygdala, Thalamus, and the Hypothalamus; I would have to state that the brain of a lizard is so simple, it is not self aware. It had the most basic functions with a few higher functions over fused ganglia.
>>
>>These more advanced functions of a lizard's brain would also include social interaction. Don't misinterpret the term social interaction with what we know it as. It's more advanced brain would add territorial aggression and fighting. Remember that there is NO frontal lobe in a lizard. It has no idea why it fights. It has no idea that it is breeding. It's responses to outside stimulation (pain) is fully automated. BUT, it can adapt to outside stimulation. If you were to walk into a room with a bucket of cricket’s everyday at 3PM, the lizard does not know that you are walking in with a bucket of crickets, but has associated the action with food. Some misinterpret this as cognitive thought. This is very basic association to external stimuli.
>>
>>Now to get to the statement of "being cruel". Lizards do not know the concept of being cruel. Lizards do not cuddle. Cuddling is something that advanced mammals are capable of. Lizards are not self aware and certainly are not aware that there is a female next to them. If anything, they would only display the automated breeding or fighting response offered by its limited brain functions. Your lizard does not love you or care for you. If you sold it tomorrow, other then an adjustment period to its new surroundings, you would be forgotten the second you handed it over. Lizards do not have emotions. Lizards do not think.
>>
>>Keeping a lizard by itself eliminates the possibility of injury because of its territorial aggression response. It has no need for companionship. It does not feel lonely or bored. If it bites you, it does not hate you. Emotions are beyond its capability. If it were aware for a second of any cognitive thought, it would appreciate the fact that you gave full use of your own frontal lobe and provided safety for it and not imposed your own higher brain functions on it.
-----
Rob Talkington

soulp97 Jul 13, 2004 02:18 AM

Thanks to everyone (except tresa) for their feedback. Luca was, at one time, housed with another beardie. I bought two of them initially because that's what the pet store recommended. It was a mistake. Luca grew twice as fast as his sister, Alex and began to dominate the area, so i had to split them up. If i were to follow Tresa's "advice" i suppose she'd want me to put them back together...but like others have said, i am in no way ready to be a nanny.

Now that he's old enough to mate, i guess he's just going through a James Dean sort of phase.

I'm going to continue to handle him (carefully of course) on a regular basis, just to show him that i bring home the bacon! Personally, i think this is all because he's been watching too much MTV. The youth of today is crazy with rebellion! One day i'll come home and find his tongue to be pierced!

Jokes aside, i'm not as worried as i was before. Reading through more of the forum shows that other people are having similar problems around this time of year with other beardies at Luca's age. I'll just hope he grows out of it.

Thanks Again,
Jon Zaremba

kephy Jul 13, 2004 07:14 AM

"but like others have said, i am in no way ready to be a nanny."

Or an inbreeder!

Good luck with him. I really do think it's a phase, my male is going through the same thing. Though he isn't as unfriendly, he sure can be cranky!
-----
Amanda
------------
2.0 bearded dragons (Ocho / Domo-kun)
0.1 kingsnake (Rio)
1.0 ferret (Playstation)
1.0 cat (Wally)
0.1 dog (Tima)

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