Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This snake recently visited our home in middle TN. As you can guess it filled up it's stomach before it left. It ate the baby birds (about two days old)that were in the nest. The bird house had been hanging on the side of our home. We relocated the snake to a new home.

for additional pictures see:
http://www.geocities.com/lightgoddess05/snakesalive1.jpg
http://www.geocities.com/lightgoddess05/snakesalive2.jpg

A black ratsnake
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...and I think to myself, "What a wonderful world."

Sorry about showing my ignorance, but I heard this is one of the best places to go for info. Now I'll show more of my ignorance... Is a chicken snake the same thing as a black rat snake?

Best way to get rid of ignorance is to ask questions..& listen to the answers. The chicken snake is the yellow ratsnake, which is a subspecies of the black ratsnake, which is also referred to as the pilot blacksnake. The two snakes' ranges overlap & where they do, they intergrade, giving us the greenish ratsnake.

~~Greg~~

Actually, all the subspecies of the Common Ratsnake (including the Black Ratsnake) are often called Chicken Snakes locally. I have heard Black Ratsnakes, Yellow Ratsnakes, Greenish Ratsnakes, and Texas Ratsnakes all being called "Chicken Snakes" by locals.

This is due to the habit of these snakes showing up in chicken coops where they eat eggs and chicks.
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Chris Harrison

I definately know that black rat snakes are commonly refered to as 'chicken snakes'. They call black rats in Georgia chicken snakes or black snakes,same as yellow rat snakes being called chicken snakes by locals. Seems down south just about ANY non-venomous snake found anywhere near a barn,hen house or bird nest is a 'chicken snake'. Thats just the way it is I guess. I have some family out in Western PA and they commonly refer to black rats as chicken snakes. I guess it all depends where you live actually. I think just about all rat snakes are called chicken snakes by locals. Black racers are also called chicken snakes since they are confused with black rat snakes a lot.

Too bad for you about those baby birds. I’m sure you didn’t install the birdhouse as a restaurant for snakes. But if you’ve got black rat snakes around, well, they’re among the most arboreal of the snakes you’d find in your area, and others will surely come sniffing around.

Like Chris says, most of the rat snakes are also referred to as chicken snakes by local folks, particularly in rural areas. Where I grew up in northern Virginia, we called them pilot black snakes.

-Joan

I'm sure the we invited all kinds of creatures when we installed the light outside! First the "bugs", Then the "toads and birds" and then the snakes. I wonder what comes next? We also recently spotted a small snake about fourteen to sixteen inches long that was mainly black with yellowish-white spots. My husband called it a salt and pepper snake. Any ideas on what it really is? Thanks for all your help!

The photo that I saw looks like a black rat snake. Some herpers may call that a gray rat. That is what it really looks like to me. At any case they are the same species and are all called chicken snakes, cowsuckers or whatever the heck you wanna call them. Pantherophis obsoleta obsoleta.

The other snake sounds like a baby Black Kingsnake. You have a nice yard for snakes. Black kings are cool in that they eat other snakes. I'd keep that around the house...may keep the copperheads away. They also are extremely docile. I have a LTC Black king myself. Really lovable snake.
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12 Leopard Geckos 5.7.0**
1 Gimpy Leo 0.1
1 Stub Tailed Leo 0.1*
2 Tokay Geckos 2.0.0*
1 Graybanded Kingsnake 1.0.0 (on vacation in my house)
1 Black Kingsnake 0.0.1*
1 Baird's Rat Snake (Thanks Vadoni!) 1.0.0*
2 Gray Ratsnakes 0.0.2
3 Dekay's Snake 0.0.3*
1 Bullsnake 0.0.1*
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum nebulosum*
1.1 Green Tree Frogs (H. cinerea)*
1.1 Gray Tree Frog (H versicolor)*
Approximately 20 gray treefrog tadpoles (collected)

*indicates possible breeders
**have bred

Hard to say without a photo, but maybe a kingsnake. The first thing that comes to my mind is the speckled kingsnake, Lampropeltis getula holbrooki, but the black kingsnake, L. g. nigra, is more likely to be in “mid Tennessee” where you live. Also, it is usually the adults that appear more “salt and pepper”; the smaller young ones like you described usually have more of a net or chain like pattern. Take a look at the photos of the adults in the link. They are really quite distinctive looking.

An outside possibility would be a juvenile black racer, Coluber constrictor.

http://frogsandsnakes.homestead.com/commonking.html

-Joan

Black and speckled kingsnakes

That's what I get for living outside the range of the black..I live down here where we just have the yellow as the obsoleta representative. This highlights the necessity for use of scientific names when discussing herps when at all possible. The common names worldwide can get extremely confusilating. For instance..there are at least three, & perhaps as many as five Latin American snakes known locally as Fer-de-Lance.

As far as that second snake goes, I agree with Joan..sounds like a Lampropeltis, but a photo would be a large help.

~~Greg~~

Thank all for your help! The second snake definately looks like the picture of the black kingsnake not the speckled.
Is there anything I should do to encourage the black kingsnakes to stay in the area?

Well, let’s see. First, you could put up about ten more birdhouses and really get those black “chicken snakes” living large. Alternatively, you could just set up a domestic hen house at ground level and make it easier on them to get at their avian food. So then your black rat snakes would prosper and produce plenty of young. Meanwhile, your black kingsnakes would be gliding around saying to themselves, “yummy, look at all those juicy rat snakes. This looks like a fine place to put down roots, lots of good eatin’ round these parts.”

Okay, not exactly, but you get the idea about the balance of nature. And it sounds like you have a nice environment going for you there already. Although the kingsnakes, like the rat snakes, will eat rodents and birds, their preferred diet is other reptiles – primarily snakes and lizards and their eggs. A property that’s not exactly swept and manicured and civilized to the nth degree is usually attractive to snakes. Consider leaving a brush pile in place instead of cleaning it up. Have any old sheets of tin? Lay some down in an open area right next to a wooded area and after a while you’ll have lots of critters setting up housekeeping where you can just lift the tin to find them.

-Joan

Of course if you try to make your property attractive to snakes you can certainly invite venomous species as well. I've seen copperheads in similar areas where black kings reside. Really if you are worried about venomous species then the best way to do it is keep you grass mowed and clear up all brush piles.

Your aim would be to get rid areas where rodents can hide and feed. You get rid of those areas all snakes will disappear or dramatically decrease in number. Of course you all do not seem to mind the snakes. I personally would want my yard to be a safehaven for snakes. They are interesting and demand our respect whether venomous or not.

The young black king you found is most likely feeding on lizards that you have in your yard. They will eat smaller snakes at that size such as Dekay's (Brown) Snakes, earth snakes, worm snakes and rign neck snakes.

They will feed on rodents too. Every king I've ever found in the wild will readily take a rodent or nestling bird.

At any rate you have a cool place to go herping. I love finding black kings and gray rats. Very cool!
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10 Leopard Geckos 4.6.0**
1 Gimpy Leo 0.1
1 Stub Tailed Leo 0.1*
2 Tokay Geckos 2.0.0*
1 Black Kingsnake 0.0.1*
1 Baird's Rat Snake (Thanks Vadoni!) 1.0.0*
2 Gray Ratsnakes 0.0.2
3 Dekay's Snake 0.0.3*
1 Bullsnake 0.0.1*
1.0 Ambystoma tigrinum nebulosum*
1.1 Green Tree Frogs (H. cinerea)*
1.1 Gray Tree Frog (H versicolor)*
Approximately 20 gray treefrog tadpoles (collected)

*indicates possible breeders
**have bred

Juv. Black Rat Snake

Brandon