Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We got a healthy male yesterday whos quite large for a baby. He could be older (than what? The normal baby number I guesse). Today we got a female who is much smaller, I'd say under 3 months old. I read on the caresheet kingsnake.com lists published in '97 I think that said above 3 months you'll want them seperated to avoid stressing the female. Is this still true? Is there no way they can live together in complete harmony? Backstory: Today when first introduced the male was puffing his beard and whatnot, checking out the newcomer. After a bit he didn't care, and by the end of the night they were butt to butt on the branch basking. Few times crawling over eachother but nobody seemed to mind. Well?

You already know they're not supposed to be kept together. Yes, they're 'apparently' co-habitating peacefully for the time being, but are you watching them 100% of the time? How do you know the presence of another chameleon isn't causing unseen stress and comprimising their health?
Consider WHY you want to keep them together. If the only reason for this is to simply save space and money by not having to provide a whole other enclosure, then you may want to reconsider having that second chameleon in the first place.
Not meant to come off as judgemental, just short on time this morning. Good luck with this!
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

seperate them. even at this age it would be best to seperate them, it is not good to house male and females together, the only chameleons that will usually get along in groups of 1 male to 3 females or so is jacksons and that is still only in large enclosures.

i recommend you seperate them just so you dont stress the animals and overall it is much healthier for them, they wont compete for food either. if you do seperate them and the cages are side by side make sure there is also a visual barrier between cages so that they cant see each other.

if by the title of this thread you were asking if there was anything OTHER than chams that can go with them, in my opinion, no there isnt. it is best to keep them by themselves. they are most likely going to eat any smaller lizards that you try to introduce. keep them alone.

Ya, if I knew then what I know now the purchase of the second might not have happened. The caresheet said before 3 months they can be housed together so I am going to bank on that, it's another week and 2 days before I get payed. I understand the strong arguement you guys have, I would make the same with anyone doing as I am doing, but sometimes sh1t happens and you have to manage the best you can. I am every bit a concerned mother as you guys.

p.s. Don't think your a concerned mother? Have an outsider watch you take care of your babies and let them handle them to see you stress about how they do it.

Hi - a week and 2 days can be a very long time for your chams. I believe the 3 month guideline is for hatchlings being together. By introducing one to the other you are already having one "invade" the other's territory. As Victor pointed out unless you are watching them 100% you may be missing some signs. The food issue is also of concern. One may be intimidated by the other and not eat. The signs of stress are not always immediatley shown and may manifest later in illness. Not trying to "scare" you just pointing some stuff out. You didn't mention what you have them in now - tank? screened cage? how big? Do you have all the other equip you need for proper setup? UVB lighting, feeders, proper supplements, temp and humidity gauges, dripper etc. One last point, you are guessing at both there ages and already said the male seems older than "baby" age which is pretty subjective depending on who tells you I think you should have a back up plan as you well may need it long before that paycheck comes.

Oh - one more (really this is the last) consideration: disease and/or parasites. Even if you have herps that are cohabitable there should always be a waiting period before introduction to make sure you are not also introducing a problem from one to the other. A fecal is always in order. OK, I'm done.

lele
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Do not put them together if they are older then 1 month. 1 of them will stress out for sure. 1 will take the food and the water you want see it unless you watch it for a cople days to see how they eat. the stress will take a toll on one or maybe both of them and theres no turning it around some times .I had the same problem but I caught it in time and I stop it right a way I took one out and gave hime his oune cage. and that was a male and female at 3 months old it will not work.

Okay, now you have both eyes open. You know you shouldn't have bought the second one just yet. You know you REALLY need to seperate them ASAP. That being said, reality is that you have two veileds that you probably can't put them in their own cage before payday (in 9 days). Okay. Suggestion on what to do with your current situation:
Go to Walmart, Target, wherever. Get some cheap plastic vines. Get plenty of them. Load up your cage with these. A LOT more than what you think you need. Idea being that if you have to house them together until next week, at least provide enough hiding places and extra crawling room for them. Also provide plenty crickets and prey items. One suggestion that Lele was using: put some fruit on toothpicks and place in either ends of the cage. This will concentrate the crickets in two locations (assuming they're freeranging). Point is, give them two seperate feeding stations so one can't bully the other over the food.
These are of course temporary solutions until you give them their own cages next week. Best of luck, keep us posted on their progress!
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

Well, I have pictures but my image converter isn't free anymore and I have to register it. So I'll just write everything.

I will be getting a new cage tomorrow that is even larger than that I have already. Maybe I will buy a second of this large size to have ready to upgrade the growing chameleons to. Until then they have both been doing very well. They do seem to get along and tolerate eachother. Both are eating and today I even got them to eat a cricket I held in my hand. The boy shed one day after I acquired him and ironically the girl did too! I am feeding them crickets that I have in a bin that eat some slurry mixed into a gel form. The last two days I used "Sticky tongue" mineral dust on the crickets but decided to not use it today. I've read chams should have a varied diet, does anyone know where I can purchase house fly larvea and other eats for young chams?

The cage they are in is about 3' tall and 16" each way. The plant is a ficus and fake sunflower/leaves lines the back. Theres two branches extending over the ficus in an "x" configuration with on higher but in reach (popular hunting branches). On top is a 100w sunglo bulb raised 4 inches and a drip system with a bowl on bottom to hopefully collect the water. Any suggestions?

Also, I've read panthers can be kept in a group of as large as 4 (females) in a large enclosure, is this true for veilds also? If so I would plan on a group of 2 to 3.

if you want to try to keep the adults together,have a cage ready for each of them, i have not been able to keep two females together! i believe it may be possible but you probably would need a really big cage!i find (in my own experience)that vields are very territorial and will fight amongst the same sex quikly but like i said before i have a male that gets along with two females (one at a time)and i also have a male and females that dont get along with anything...lol

i was sort of in the same position has u except mine have always been together.
then i found out that they should not be together(i already spent all my cash on the one set up)
i have one of thhose cloth mesh cages so it was easy for me to do has a temporay solution,
i sowed a black tarp in the middle giving them less room but they couldn't get to each other or see each other.
just an idea, can u put a divider in your cage until u can get another cage?

not tryin to cuase an arguement but...
i have adults that live together in the same cage
the rule of thumb is to house seperately, but i tend to wonder why?, so i experiment...lol
i beleive (my own oppinion) that a lot of factors go into whether or not i can house my adult veileds together,the most important of them being able to spend time watching them and trying to understand what may cause fighting and or stress
some have the temperment to fight with eachother some get along well together i beleive this to be true because i have both

p.s. after all chams are addictive so who wants just one!

what needs to be kept in mind here is that the person inquiring is a brand new cham owner. It is NOT a good idea to advise a new keeper to house together. If you are an experienced keeper and want to stress your chams just to try and figure them out well, then that's what you will do (too bad the chams become guinea pigs). So rather than letting everyone know what YOU may CHOOSE to do, try giving the best all round advice in helping a new keeper.

Don't mean to rain on your parade but have you ever noticed how often your posts begin with "...not tryin to cuase an arguement but..." ?
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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

so am i to be ATTACKED for stating my oppinion?
the reason i start my post like that is to try and prevent people from attacking my post just because they dont necessarily
agree with them!!!
I DONT DO THAT TO ANYONE AND I DONT EXPECT THEM TO DO THAT TO ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
p.s. if you dont like my post then dont open them looking for something to ATTACK me for

thank you and it'll probably hard for you but have a nice day.

i don't have a big problem with someone going against conventional wisdom ( i think several of todays care standards will be proved incorrect over the next few years) but i think you missed lele's point...a new keeper should learn how to care for one chameleon instead of having a cluster **** with two chams stuffed in a cage with an owner that is inexpierienced...

there is a post further up from someone who just bought there first cham...that person was on the forum posting lots of questions before they ever bought his/her cham, not making an impulse buy like the origininator of this string (say what you want but you did)

if you did your research and created the proper conditions to keep a few chams together and it's working....great...but read the original post and you'll see that the poster is doing it out of necessity and that's the problem that should be addressed.

ps...feel free to disagree with anyone here but don't personally insult anyone...especially someone like lele who is nothing but extremely helpfull and someone that one day might be the only one here with the answer to one of your questions

Umm... i dont remember insulting anyone!However i do remember getting insulted myself just because my Oppinion differs from the mainstream
I am not looking for an arguement,I am just letting people who ask know my oppinion, what works for me!
when i started with chameleons i was not a "professional" saw one at the store and bought it! with no research...lol
which is one of the chams i keep with another
This is Fact and whether or not someone agrees with me or not i should not be ATTACKED for posting as i have been before
In attacking someone it does not help any situation but it could hurt it!
so at the risk of repeating myself I DONT ATTACK OTHER PEOPLES POST SO I WOULD APPRECIATE MINE NOT BEING ATTACKED
Thats all i have to say about that

>>I am not looking for an arguement,I am just letting people who ask know my oppinion, what works for me!
We understand you're stating an opinion (not a fact!), one that goes against conventional wisdom. The point is that this new chameleon owner may not know what conventional wisdom says, and what your personal anecdotes are. He doensn't know the difference. All he knows is someone posted 'Hey I keep my chameleons this way...'
I know this guy who kept a chameleon in a fish tank, never had any issues! Okay, the chameleon was ceramic, but hey- hey kept it in a fish tank and NEVER HAD ANY ISSUES!!!
No, not attacking. Just having a little fun!
Oh, one last thing- attack Lele and you'll have LOTS of people on you from this forum, including me. JK
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

LMAO first off i havent attacked anyone even when attacked (i think its against the rules)!
second: i have a few chams in glass tanks and screen cages and guess what they aren't ceramic...lol
3rdly: i think most people are smart enough to understand our posts are not written in stone they are just our experience with our own pets or something somebody read and passes it off as their own anyway i would like to point out just because they read it in a book doesn't mean it's absolute!
im in no way a professional just posting my own experience hoping to help someone and to not get attacked
p.s. i think you are missing the point

we probably could have kept this post to one reply if someone would have said "hey buddy, you made an impulse buy...here are some links to caresheets..best of luck"

I did make an impulse buy and read a few caresheets before posting here. Caresheets don't ever give enough information. They don't tell you cause and effect. Thats why these forums are so helpful. The forums are also good cause they can differ from the generally accepted "truth", much like keeping 2 chameleons together. I could liken it to keeping two snakes together, things go well for a long time then one day you come home to find your favorite male red tail boa strangled by the female for no reason (like what happened to a poor fellow on the boa forum). Also the forums can save lots of money, lots. I use sevin dust and/or vegitable oil on my snakes to get rid of mites, the dust is $5 for a big bag that lasts indefinately and can be used solo to do the job. The forums are just a place to get down to specifics. Anyway, thanks for the info all of you, it is very helpful.

...I was surpised to hear that you use Sevin Dust directly on your snakes. Being a horticulturist (and an organic one at that ) I would be concerned about the toxin/poison that you are exposing your snake to (respiratory as well as it being an endocrine disruptor). Not judging at all as I know nothing about snakes, but I do know about chemical pesticides and I just never heard of using this as a treatment.

lele

in case you're interested:
endocrine disruptors

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0.1 veiled - Luna
0.2 house geckos - Gaia & Tia (MIA
0.2 felines - Kyndra and Líta

Yup. Just search for it in the snake forums. It's been used since the 70's even on a large scale and never any side effects. Not pure dust, it's the Sevin-Five (or 5%). You can even use on eye caps, but not over the mouth. Since I don't have as much expierence with it I use it and after 15 minutes I wash it off. Also you can use it all over their cage, around the cage, etc. Best way to get rid of mites in my opinion, but its the only way I've tried. Appearently it is not of extreme toxicity, you can use it on a fruit and eat the same fruit as little as two days later or something. I'm sure you would know more abut this part than me though, is that true?

It'll be okay Victor. Calm down & take a deep breath. I also hate it when people give inexperienced owners the wrong advice. He needs to be setting up his own housing correctly, instead of bickering about Lele. Let him make his own chams sick. Meanwhile, people like you & Lele can keep giving accurate advice to those who ask for knowledgeable advice.
By the way, all my chams are housed separately & individually in screen cages. The only time I EVER have 2 together is for breeding purposes.
Cricket

I can take personal attacks fine. I've got a thick enough skin. I can even take disagreements of the care of chameleons. No one's perfect.
But mess with Lele- look out! Hehehe! Kidding folks
Hey, I'm not bent outta shape here, really! Nothing was stated out of disrespect to anyone, no personal attacks. We're all playing nicely in the sandbox.....
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Victor Gomez
gomezvi.tripod.com/sdchamkeepers/
gomezvi@yahoo.com

lol
i never "messed with lele"
i was giving my 2 cents to the guy asking the question
it was i who was messed with because they didnt agree with somthing i had posted!
hey "all im askin for is a lil' respect" if you dont agree with something i said thats ok just dont start messing with me on and on and on about some b.s.
i have and still do keep a pair of chameleons together and they are very healthy and i defend telling him that because it may let him know that there are more ways than just one to take care of animals!
THE EXACT REASON FOR MY POST STARTING WITH I'M NOT TRYING TO CAUSE AN ARGUEMENT IS FOR THIS EXACT REASON
EVERY TIME I POST SOMETHING THAT DOESNT NECCESSARILY AGREE WITH OTHERS I GET RIDICULED
well im kinda p.o. but that will not stop me from posting
but if it makes anybody happy i might just add a disclaimer to my posts....lmao something like read at your own risk lol
ANY IDEAS ON CONTENT FOR MY DISCAIMER WILL BE GREATLY APRECIATED!!....HAHAHAHAHAHA