Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This case is a prime example that if the people who responsibly own venomous reptiles don't ban together and act responsibly, then the rights to keep them will be gone. Thus the dealers won't have any customers left.
North Dakota is putting in legislation to ban ownership of venomous snakes. They asked me my opinion, I gave it to them. "Responsible ownership of venomous snakes is not that dangerous if the proper knowledge, experience and safety protocol are taken!"
Illinois DNR contacted me last fall for my opinion on what is "responsible ownership" as well as appropriate species to be regulated or banned alltogether.
Colorado already has legislation in place stating that you must have a permit to own them. However it is either too difficult to get a license or they just don't give many out. I think there are two in CO.
South Dakota is looking at legislation now concerning another moron in my own city that is keeping stuff that he shouldn't.
Wyoming contacted me regarding another individual keeping King Cobras and is currently looking into more restrictive laws.
Does this show that I don't think people should own venomous snakes....Probably. However my true feelings concerning this is the opposite. I would love for people to enjoy these animals, if done responsibly, it is a very enjoyable, safe hobby!
Now what is responsibility in my opinion?
Knowledge:
Of reptiles in general, species kept in particular.
Proper training/experience:
Enough time under the tutelage of another responsible keeper of the species wished to be kept.
And proper protocol:
Which includes notifying emergency personel, police, fire dept, and emergency medical staff and the local hospital.
The most important is access to Antivenom. I do think that people should maintain their own.

So, what should be done about it?
1)the responsible venomous community should start weeding out the testosterone filled idiots.
2) they should start educating their local emergency personel.
3) should weed out dealers that are less than respectable.
4) They should work on the FDA to make it easier for AV to be brought in to the country.
#4 is the reason I posted this whole thing. Maybe as responsible keepers you all should start a petition to give to the FDA. Get as many experts and zoo personel as well as as many private people as possible to approach the FDA. In Europe it is much easier to obtain sera than it is here in the US. Thus many more keepers stock it.
I truly can't imagine that there would be many people who truly were dedicated to this hobby and not want it to become a thing of the past, only found in zoos, that would not be willing to invest 300-500$ for SAIMR AV. this covers a huge number of species that are the most common in the pet trade.The fact is that most AV is not that expensive.
The point is, YOU, need to come to some resolution about this! If not it is going to be done for you.

In Australia, they can keep a hundred Taipans, but not a single cobra. Why, The govt. is afraid of more introduced species. Also there is no access to AV. Do we want that to happen here? I would think not.
AV banks are a good idea, but that is still putting the work and responsibility on someone elses plate. An AV bank would have to be a privately run for profit enterprise otherwise it wouldn't work on a large scale. If you weren't within an hours drive of it, it wouldn't do you much good.
Why don't those of you who wish this hobby to continue, speak up! Ratt on the jerks that are doing illegal garbage at the venomous shows and dealers who will do it all for a buck? I hate that idea, but if YOU don't start standing up for your hobby then it is gonna get shut down! Quit hiding behind these computer screens like a bunch of computer geeks and get out there and change things! Stop the legislation BEFORE it goes to govt? Start behaving responsibly and quit picking fights over a silly forum just because you disagree.
Even if you don't like EVERYTHING about this idea. in order to keep most of your rights you might just have to give up a couple and spend a little more time (learning) and money (Anti venom)
Because this is really getting out of hand....YOU all need to do something.
Soooo, lets see what YOU all think?
I know that there are a lot of very Responsible people who read these forums, many of which simply choose not to say anything. for good reason. But like I said, speak now or forever hold your peace...so to speak.....
Hopefully, you all can see that I am trying to truly help the responsible people in this industry...the irresponsible ones.....oh well!
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It's what you learn AFTER you know it all that counts!

Terry Phillip
Curator of Reptiles
Black Hills Reptile Gardens

www.reptilegardens.com

Terry, I couldn't agree with you more. Every time I see a new headline detailing some absolutely stupid incident involving an irresponsible owner (and perhaps an equally irresponsible dealer), I can only think that it is another nail on the coffin (and that coffin, right now, is almost full of nails!). Illinois, as you mentioned, is trying to come to grips with this issue but having talked to the DNR, there are some great folks who ironically, for a government agency, are not necessarily opposed to private ownership of venomous herps but rather want to see responsible ownership....but I would be shocked if legislation ever provided opportunities for private individuals to own venomous herps in this state. For the most part, the private individuals I know who keep venomous herps are some of the most knowledgeable, professional, serious and dedicated hobbyists you will ever meet. They echo my sentiments so I am not just speaking as some "snooty curator" as some folks on this forum call me. instead, I want nothing more than to see responsible people being given the opportunity to keep their hobby alive (including myself...I am writing this as an individual)....but I am afraid that the momentum to ban all venomous (and perhaps any) herps is coming all too fast; it will take the concerted efforts of EVERY private and responsible owner to band together to properly educate those who are making the decisions for us (who have NO knowledge of herps or herp keeping). The zoo community needs to step off their pedestals and acknowledge the amazing advances attributed to the private hobbyist community (who for the most part, run circles around most zoo personnel...but I will say that there are some exceptional folks in the zoological park industry; some of the best of the best). I am afraid, though, that the apathy portrayed by the herp community is going to be difficult to shift into a proactive unified body. But I sure can hope! Rob

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at the historic Elawa Farm
City of Lake Forest Parks & Recreation (IL)

I did not call you a snooty curator!
We went over this 2X so far.
I responded to a critical post in this way
"another snooty curator?"
not naming you at all I feel bad enough about it
without salt being put in it every couple months.
sorry one more time.
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Bud

Over a half dozen folks from the various venomous forums have called me "snooty" so this was by no means directed at you....you did indeed make yourself very, very clear and I apologize this sounded like I was directing my stab at you; that wasn't my intention and your name didn't even come to mind. It was directed to some of the others who made some very dirogatory comments towards me...and these comments were due to shear ignorance and stupidity (and you know who you are). Rob

ok sorry
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Bud

I agree entirely on your pursuit to obtaining antivenom, but I also believe there should be national legislation. If there was a federal law and permit system in place, the laws would be the same everywhere. Would a federal law override state laws, or would the states still be able to fully restict venomous? I think a single law and permit system would be easier for dealers, not having to worry about the laws of each state. Also, what happens when a venomous hobbyist has to move to a state where permits are rarely or never given out? Ive worried about this myself. Federal law would hopefully stop beginning keepers in states with no restictions from purchasing venomous animals. These people cause a lot of problems because their purchasing may be seen as legal to the seller and therefore it is easy for them to get the animals that they want with no preparation. Its legal for me to keep local venomous animals here in California and they are everywhere out here (see my posts with pictures) but that doesnt mean I go out and collect them and keep them. I am preparing myself first. I think that we should be able to stand against complete bans of venomous animals and fight for legislation that requires a permit to keep these animals. Conservation is just as important for venomous and dangerous animals as it is non, but it shouldnt be left up to just anyone.

Terry,

I also am in general agreement with the above. But there is one thing you mention which I believe is all but impossible in today's herp hobby: self policing. We've all been griping about it for a while, but I don't see it getting any better. You say we should weed out irresponsible keepers, but you don't propose any kind of plan to do that. As private individuals, we really have no way to do that. There are always going to be unscrupulous sellers that will send their snakes to anyone who can give them a buck. I honestly don't see that changing anytime soon. Likewise, there will always be people wanting certain snakes that they maybe shouldn't have. I simply don't see how we, as nonpowerful private people can really do much to stop these people from doing what they do. We can gripe all we want to on forums or chats, but it won't really change much. I definitely agree that something needs to be done to curb them, but in the end, I believe it'll be along the same lines as the drug problem in this country. There is simply no way to completely stop it from happening. The problem is...we see how legislators deal with the drug problem. I don't see them doing anything much different with the "snake problem."

Next there is the problem of subjectivity. Who gets to decide who is or is not competent to care for his/her snakes? Lots and lots of disagreement there. There are certainly people who would deem me incapable of caring for my venomous snakes, and people I would deem unfit to care for their venomous snakes, but after all, these are just opinions. There are no established time frames for a person to move from one snake to the next, in regards to "difficulty level." There are also standardized criteria for a vendor to use when questioning a potential buyer. I may have one set of questions I ask, someone else will most assuredly have an entirely different set. Unless we can all sit down and make out a standardized questionaire that we 'force' all venomous vendors to employ (I really see this happening...) and that we can all agree upon, it will not work.

There is also the issue of a federal restriction on venomous keepers. I personally think it's a grand idea. But then again, I'm a liberal by nature and don't mind federal laws. However, seemingly the majority of the herp community is on the other side of the fence from myself, and don't like restrictions. People will fight any new laws, whether they be in their best interest or not. And people in this country, by and large, like their states' rights and don't want the 'feds' to interfere too much. Then there is, of course, the issue of how to fund such an operation, what to do with the people that violate it, how to keep it from becoming too severe, etc.

So yeah, it's a very complicated problem that I'm afraid will come to a very simple answer fairly soon. If you simply make it illegal, you don't have to worry about funding a new federal or state institution to watch over these worrisome keepers.
-Chance