Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I'm sorry to bring this up but lately, I've seen posts of people talking about babies that didn't turn out right or something to cause reason for the need to euthanize the animal.

Why freezing? I'm not trying to bite at anyone but freezing is probably one of the most painful ways for any animal to die.
Can't we think of another way?
CO2 would honestly be a MUCH better way (after all, that's how we kill our feeder rodents), it'd just take longer than the immediate reaction with mammals as it's been proven snakes can live longer without much air.

Just curious is all. I'm not trying to stir up crap but I am just wondering why freezing seems to be the choice option?
I'm probably bringing it up because I am a vet tech, I know about the different euthanizing procedures and the science behing living tissue being slowly frozen...and because I'm a long time rescuer, rehabber and educator that brings it out in me. I'm sorry if I offend anyone...just asking a question for my own personal curiosity.

Hopefully no one will take it the wrong way.

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

Actually, let me restate my thinking....actually, the best way for any animal to be euthanized is with Euthasol from a vet. But, we all can't afford to run out and euthanize our babies produced so I understand that.
Just interesting to see the research on the best ways to euthanize and why some methods just don't work on reptiles like they do for mammals.

yes I have way too much time on my hands right now. LOL!

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

I know I'm no expert, but I thought with reptiles that they just slowly shut down to a sleep and then they die. You know the cold just slows them down until they just shut down completely. I did not think they had the same kind of heat/cold receptors either to make it feel like pain. Similar to lets say a bearded dragon or something gets burned SLOWLY on a heat rock.
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Justin

Good point Justin. I have always wondered how an iguana can sit on a hot rock...sniff the air...and ask..."does anyone else smell something burning?"

Tom

Heya Justin.

Well, as I understand it (and trust me, I'm by no means an expert either, just going off what I've researched on which there is NOT a lot of info on this particular topic out there yet), you are right, however, it appears that we now know they DO feel pain.
As being animals who are masters at hiding their weaknesses for fear of predatory animals taking them down, it is hard enough for us to determine when our reptiles are ailing, nonetheless, we can see that they feel pain. (for example, our sheena - resident green iguana - used to have horrible pain in her hips everytime they were even touched in the slightest she'd winch...but, with rehabbing and TLC, now she only does that if you're not careful picking her up (no quick pick ups and watch her hips from twisting).

As to whether they feel this in time before they freeze to death? I'm not sure. I would love to find research on this though. If there is proven research that they do not feel pain before they pass away in the freezing process, then I won't have anything to complain about on that topic (fine by me). ;D So, if there is research, I'd be very interested to see it. It's a very interesting topic as you had brought up that they do have slower responses in regards to pain receptors...so, again, this question of whether or not they'd feel anything before going under is an intriguing question.

*thinking*

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

I think that it's hard to comparing freezing a clod blooded animal to a warm blooded animal. We euthanize our feeders with CO2 because it would be inhumane to try and kill our warm blooded feeders in the freezer, for obvious reasons. However, I think that when a cold blooded animal is in an environment that gets cold, I think that their metabolism slows down very quickly until their systems stop. I don't think that there is any pain involved. When thier metablosm drops, I think that their sensation to pain lowers also. CO2 would be another possibilty. I have never used it so I am not sure how a reptile would react in an oxygen void environment.

For baby snakes, it would be difficult to use Euthasol, since that has to be injected directly into the blood stream, usually through a large vein or artery in the inside of the front legs in dogs and cats. Once Euthasol reaches the heart, it causes rapid heart failure and the result is a quick, painless death. My father is a vet and I worked in vet clinics through high school and college. Believe me, I have seen more than my share of euthanaias. If you did not get the Euthasol into a major artery or vein, and only injected it intramusculary or subcutaneouusly, the outcome is a very slow dragged out death as the Euthasol will slowly reach the heart. It could take hours for the animal to die. We would almost have to inject it directly into the heart itself in order to be successful.

For cold blooded...I really don't see a much more humane method of euthanasia than freezing. It's fool proof and I really don't think that the animal feels any pain. If they do, then the reptiles that hibernate in the north are in for a long painful winter and they never seem to be too bothered by it.

Good question to bring up. I really don't think that people should get offended by good questions.

Tom

That I was looking for.

Yes, you are absolutely right on the euthasol. In most companion small animals, Doc had to inject it directly into the heart as a good vein on a rat or guinea pig is really difficult to find. (I don't care to witness such euthanasias again...like you, I've had my fair share and it's never easy...but, if I do become a vet, these things become unfortunately necessary sometimes).

See, any YOU bring up an interesting theory as well (and probably not JUST a theory). Snakes that hibernate....well, perhaps this would shed some light on the whole issue of freezing them or not.
Just very curious on this. And yes again, you are right...warm blooded creatures are far more sensitive to pain or rather, have a MUCH quicker reaction to it than coldblooded.

I guess that's mostly why I'm asking this...knowing reptiles DO feel pain (however eventually it comes) as to warmblooded creatures, I'm just deeply curious if they feel pain during this process. If not, then yes I will wholeheartedly agree that freezing is the most humane way to euthanize reptiles.

As always, I'll come up with questions like this. My mind never stops (sometimes that's a blessing. LOL!)

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

i think another thing that has to do with it is real quick things will cause them pain as opposed to slowly doing it like a heat rock slowly overheating. Do you get what I'm saying? That is how I think it works. To bad they can't talk. We could then simply use a needle and poke it and say what hurts worse fast poke or slow stedy paced press in. It may even vary from individual with pain (not the freezing pain) but like when i get a shot, I rather it go in slowly than a quick stick. Same thing with tape on hair. I pull it off more slowly. I never jurk it off. That hurts like crap. but then again I can baarely feely pain like that because I grew/growing up rough housing with my uncles and cousins and stuff. I also get scratched and bit by everything that is outside. I mean everything. i have been to the hospital for more cu open wounds and stuff than most and get tetnis (spelling?) shots about every 2 years. And i have seemed to toughen up. Man have I got off track. Sorry about that. i will try not to let it happen again. Next tiem I'll put story time on the sunject. Alright i'll shut up now lol.
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Justin

If one is talking about "putting to sleep", the freezing would be the way.
The body slows down to the point of deep sleep, one that is never awoken from. Think of hypothermia, where the body begins to lose it's warmth.Heart rate and respiration slow to almost nothing. One "passes out", and slips away to death.
By time a snake, or any other cold blooded animal gets to the point where they might feel pain, most body systems would have slowed down, or shut down to the point where nothing is felt.
CO2 on the other hand...dissect an animal that has been poisoned with CO2. Remove the lungs, notice how red the lungs are. Notice the blood in the lung tissue.
One cant argue that this does'nt cause pain. Unless already in an unconcious state, the lungs must feel some pain, there is gasping for air, as this is a normal involutary reflex.Also
what is the temp of CO2? Think...what is "dry ice" made from?
So is the CO2 chilling the animal until systems shut down, and then suffocating? Suffication alone? Or does the temps of CO2 kill the animal?
Yes, both methods CO2, and freezing will produce sleep...as far as quickness...CO2 wins for warm blooded animals. Freezing for cold blooded.
Note...some turtles require so little oxygen, they can remain alive even after being decapitated. Snappers being among them.
Ok...I've rambled enough.
One thing though about this thread, it shows you all care enough about your animals to look for the most humane way to euthanize them.

Hi Amanda (and everyone else too),

I just read your post, and the replies to it, and the arguments in favor of freezing are plausible, I'll admit. I have to disagree though with the idea that freezing is the most humane method of euthanizing a reptile.

My contention is this - at whatever rate, however quick or slow the onset of pain may be in freezing a cold blooded animal to death, it must undoubtedly exist, as it is obvious that the animals are not exempt from pain. Euthanization via CO2 asphyxiation is effectively painless completely through to the moment of death as it initially renders the subject unconscious, thereby virtually eliminating even the possibility of the animal knowing that it is being euthanized - if it were to possess the mental capacity to understand such an event.

It seems to me that falling unconscious, then to death while 'sleeping', would be much better than any kind of extreme of temperature, blunt trauma, or other kind of barbaric methods. Please, I'm not trying to accuse anyone of being barbaric, I just think the CO2 method is by far and away the more humane method to use - even if it takes a few minutes longer than it would take to put down a mammal.

I invite your comments/ideas,
- Mark

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When we talk about using CO2 to put animals to sleep, essentially we could substitute "suffocation" for sleep. When the animal inhales the CO2, it attaches to the oxygen receptor site lungs so that no oxygen can attach to that site. Over time, the brain and blood are deprived of oxygen and die. To say that the animal would fall, "unconscious and sleep to it's death," is a nice way of saying we suffocate it.

Either C02 or freezing will work. Freezing is not "barbaric" and neither is using C02. I think that they are both fine methods of human eutanasia.

Tom

(and again, we are merely discussing all realms of this, forgive me if I ever sound rude or blunt, not my intention).

When we suffocate manually, it is a traumatic way to die fighting for air.
Using CO2 is not the same in this respect. It has an almost immediate knock out effect where you just faint (that's why we can't get too close while CO2 ing our rodents) and then it eventually suffocates you yes. But, you can't really call doing CO2 suffocation in the respect of comparing it to holding a pillow over someone's face but I do understand that what you were saying about the actual process is that it IS suffocating the lungs and that's how CO2 works.
I know I know, I probably read to much into it but I'm a Libra so I tend to walk on all sides of a discussion (see now why my friends laugh and say I never shut up? LOLOL!)
So no, I'm not saying you suggested holding a pillow over someone's face is the same is using CO2 but I wanted to clarify that to anyone who may have read it that way I suppose...er...am I making any sense at this point?

Hugs!

a somewhat bedazzled Amanda Rose

When I read the above post it did seem to me that a direct comparison was being made between CO2 asphyxiation and suffocation.

It is very much clear that the effect is the same (deprivation of oxygen, thus death), but the means to the end are case and point wherein lies the critical difference making one humane and the other, well, murder (and yes, traumatic).

CO2 is nearly instantaneous, at least to the point where the animal becomes unconscious, and from there pain becomes a mute point. How can freezing possibly compete with that?

I've used this method exclusively for years to put down feeders and so have seen first hand how very quick and effective it is, while bearing no discernable trauma whatsoever to the animals. Granted, I've never tried this on a reptile, so I am making some assumptions here. I'll be looking for information on this though, just in case I ever have to do it I want to be sure it is a good assumption to make.

- Mark

>>and again, we are merely discussing all realms of this, forgive me if I ever sound rude or blunt, not my intention).
>>
>>When we suffocate manually, it is a traumatic way to die fighting for air.
>>Using CO2 is not the same in this respect. It has an almost immediate knock out effect where you just faint (that's why we can't get too close while CO2 ing our rodents) and then it eventually suffocates you yes. But, you can't really call doing CO2 suffocation in the respect of comparing it to holding a pillow over someone's face but I do understand that what you were saying about the actual process is that it IS suffocating the lungs and that's how CO2 works.
>>I know I know, I probably read to much into it but I'm a Libra so I tend to walk on all sides of a discussion (see now why my friends laugh and say I never shut up? LOLOL!)
>>So no, I'm not saying you suggested holding a pillow over someone's face is the same is using CO2 but I wanted to clarify that to anyone who may have read it that way I suppose...er...am I making any sense at this point?
>>
>>Hugs!
>>
>>a somewhat bedazzled Amanda Rose

I'm still voting for CO2 or euthanasia via a vet and euthasol even though honestly, with CO2 there is no prick, no pain and no trauma from a visit to another place.

I still would feel better about seeing some research on reptiles and pain. I know there is SOME out there (Melissa Kaplan has some on her website).
http://www.anapsid.org/herppain3.html
http://www.anapsid.org/herppain.html
These are but two on her site.

True, reptiles have a slower pain response. But that does not mean they are incapable of feeling pain. So we all know this. However, I do not think it would suggest that therefore a slow death would be better and pain free as opposed to a quick one. Even though it takes them longer to feel pain, this just doesn't mean they don't feel pain from a slow death.

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

I didn't read this entire post so I hope I'm not repeating anything

my thought is since they cannot regulate their own blood temp it would freeze much quicker than a warm blood creature. Now what I'm thinking is what if they are still coherent when this happens. Wouldn't it be painful if your blood started turning to ice & expanding inside your body? True some reps hibernate but even then it's only as cold as like 60 max right? puttin a snake in a freezer ..say a burm....is more like taking yourself naked out of a florida resort & throwing you in alaska in the blink of an eye. so being that it's that drastic & quick does anyone think what I said above is possible??

Everyone here has brought up great points on both sides. The question is this:

If using CO2 takes longer with a reptile, do they feel pain from this? And if they do, is this pain greater than the pain of quickly cooling down?

Because snakes dont regulate their temperature by themselves, I really wonder if they would even really feel pain from getting cold. We feel the pain because our bodies are tryin very hard to keep us warm. But what if they werent, as in reptiles? I know they can sense that they are getting cold, but could they feel it to the point of pain before they would become unconcious?

Would they be able to sense the lack of oxygen with using CO2? Would this cause them pain? We cannot truly even answer what "hurts" a snake. Sure, when they whip around and tag you for giving them a shot, we can assume it would hurt. But would they feel pain from losing oxygen?

I ask these questions and I may be way off. But I am asking them anyways. The truth is, we may never know the answers. Until someone finds a talking snake that is willing to be poked, asphyxiated, and frozen.
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1.0 Albino Green Burm
0.2 Normal Burm
1.1 Java Retic

this has been a great discussion.

I agree, it really shows not only how much we all care for our animals in talking about all these possibilities and such, but I think it also shows how mature (uh oh, there's that word again) and awesome we can all be to just discuss this and not start a flame war over it based solely on emotions or what we don't know.

I believe that unless we have scientific experimentation (also not the prettiest of things) just like they've done on human brains, mammals, birds, etc to watch the synapse activities where they can tell if we have had a pain response or no...unless they do a study like this on reptiles, we may very well never know.

If anyone finds information related to this, please share it with everyone here as we would all love to learn more on this.

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

Watch how you toss that word "mature" around Ms Amanda Rose.
I'm willing to bet I am more than twice the age of those that post here...lol
Ok...I may be old (older?), but that does'nt mean I grew up.
Unfortunately the euthanasia thing is something that comes up in our live far too often. I have been a dog breeder since I was 18,and with nearly 30 years of doing my doggy thing, putting a dog, or any animal down is still very difficult.
I guess when it becomes easy, it is time to take up golf.
We get our animals, and our life span does'nt coincide with theirs. And death sadly comes far too soon.
You have raised everyone's pysche, by posting your ponderance.
You let us all show, we care, and try to make our decision to put an animal down based on fact.
PS...the whack'em on the head thing??? Hmmmm...
No thanks.
Bob 46anos

LOL! Well you know what I meant. I tried to explain for no one to take that the wrong way. LOLOL! ;D

Trust me, in the many people I've worked with, met and worked for in my life thus far, being only 25, I can tell you without a doubt that age does NOT define the level of mental maturity that's for darn sure. haha! I used to work for some guys who ranged from being in their mid 40s to their late 60s that could NOT learn to take responsibility for their own work or problems as such...I've also met some people that were under 14 when I was a teacher or people my own age that act ridiculous about how they manage their lives. I'm all for live free, die free but when you make major booboos and refuse to take the blame rather than trying to point it elsewhere...well that's when ye old favorite word of "maturity" takes a fast flight out of town. LOL!

Hugs!

Amanda Rose - living off caffeine and random crazy thought processes lately (aka, I have new projects and ideas I'm working on constantly, woot!)

You say maturity like its a bad thing!...lol

You want to read this:

Euthanasia of amphibians and reptiles : report of a joint UFAW/WSPA working party.
Potters Bar, Herts, UK : Universities Federation for Animal Welfare ; London, UK : World Society for the Protection of Animals, c1989.

I looked at it a few years ago. As I recall, it recommended against CO2, drowning, and freezing. Among the best methods were anesthesia and a blow to the snake's head to crush the brain. But how do you hold a snake's head still enough to crush the brain without also crushing your thumb?

The report did not say anything about refrigeration above freezing temperatures. But that may slow a snake down enough to hit the snake's head even if it doesn't kill the snake by itself. Which could easily happen because surviving hibernation requires a slow temperature decrease to harden the snake to winter temperatures.

Paul Hollander

A reason why the AVMA suggests CO2 is a humane way to kill certain animals is based on the animal's metabolism. Anyone who has tried to kill pinky rats/rabbits/mice has found that their slow metabolism makes the amount and time of CO2 efficiency highly suspect. Larger rabbits with slower metabolisms suffer a slow death (death by asphyxiation; it can't be called going to sleep, btw). CO2 is only humane when it can accomplish unconsciousness quickly and that is not accomplished in all cases or for all animals. A reptile's metabolism is much slower than a mammal's; it would not be humane to have a reptile in a CO2 filled container for half an hour or so. Freezing on its own is not humane either but I have read previously that one should place the snake in the refrigerator first to allow it to cool. If that is the case then I see no reason why the cooling cannot be a gradual one and the freezer should be the end of that process: remove heat for 24 hours, cool in the refrigerator for 24 hours, then freeze.
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Marcia Pimentel
Tango River Reptiles (Off-line Temporarily)
GiantFeeders

I have not read this but would like to (Paul, do you have a link to this or is it on paper and not online?).

If that IS the case then yes, I think too that would be the way to go.

Very interesting stuff if you ask me. Albeit, not a wonderful happy type topic, but, it is a most necessary one to know about for those of us who deal in rescue, breeding or just really want to know just in case something goes horribly wrong with our reptiles (don't take that as an excuse to know how to kill them off in case we don't have proper husbandry please people. I'm just letting thoughts pass through my brain as they show up. Just pondering what we've all been talking about).

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

The citation I gave earlier is paper only.

Steve Barton's Euthanasia of Reptiles is brief but covers the main points. Nothing in it disagrees with my memories.

Paul Hollander

Steve Barton's Euthanasia of reptiles

I agree with you in that nothing argues against what you said so please don't take my ponderings as a front against you or calling you up on anything you said sweetie. ;D I respect you Paul and please don't think otherwise.

Something interesting though in that article (and I didn't realize that was one of the articles I'd read off Melissa's site.)
"Freezing has been used as a humane method to kill small reptiles under one pound in weight. Although low temperatures do result in a state of torpor, the formation of ice crystals in the tissue is quite painful. Freezing should only be done to anesthetized animals"

I found this interesting in saying freezing is great for snakes up to 1 lb....why only 1 lb? I'm very curious about this. Maybe that's in combination to say that our typical freezers could best accomodate that size snake as opposed to anything larger in order to freeze it correctly???

Your thoughts (and anyone else's) on this?

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

Well, i think it is like comparing freezing a turkey to a thin slice of beef. what will freeze faster? The small snake quickly dies because it gets colder quicker. a large one may conserve heat (very little but sustainable for a short while) in the midlle of the boddy and keep it alive while the outside tissues slowly crystalize.
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Justin