Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
I don't own any hots ..i really want a gaboon but since I am completely in the dark about dealing with hots my time for one has not yet come....Now I'm sure most of you know that this past reptiles mag was a hot snake issue & I read it front to back...my question is I noticed even in the hot snake land it seemed like hots are still fed frozen rats. Now is this just to be kinder to the prey, keep the snake from possible injury...or does the feeding of frozen actually help the hot snake's disposition & attitude?
also if anyone in the tri-state area could use an extra hand every now & then with caring & cleaning their hots.. I would love to gain some experience working with hots....you teach I help clean the mess..lol

Gaboons are definitly not for beginners. That being said, there is no effect on behaivor from feeding frozen vs live. it is strictly for the safety of the snake and the ease of food storage.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

yeah unfortunately I have heard that about gabbies from everyone..lol no rush I'll have it one day

thanks for the reply

I second that...however, from work with mainly anacondas I have noticed in E. murinus when feeding f/t many snake will gently take the item like a puppy taking a treat. Now the second you tease and make the prey look like it will run away..feeding response kicks in. I have even seen this behavior, though not as extreme, in more the agressive species corallus hortulanus. I do not know if anyone has seen this with particular venomous species but I have heard of one f/t feeding N. kaouthia someone could not get to hood due to its calm nature. I would relate that more with the snake and genetics but even with all this said. This is agression in feeding response and in no way relates to reactions a snake would have in defensive behavior. I can always count on an amazon tree boa to strike at me even if it does not strike its ft food as you could assume the same behavior in any deadly elapid and viper...not the same thing so it doesnt matter, keep your hands away from the bitis. And I also agree it is not a beginner hot, size alone makes it difficult. Not to mention 2 inch fangs that can pump enough venom in you to where the minimum effect would be loosing a limb if it hadnt already killed you. And I will post again that eyelash vipers are a way better beginner. Nice looking, exotic, not simple, more margin of error. Most people will recomend small rattle snakes and copperheads (also very pretty like a gaboon) but i would still rather risk a hit from an eyelash viper than most rattlers and copperheads...copperheads can get big.

My personal reasons for feeding frozen in order from most to least impotant:

1) Less chance of injury to the snake
2) More humane to the prey (but I don't necessarily disapprove of others feeding live)
3) Ease of storage
4) Fewer mammal lovers having cows in the snake room

That is the same with my list...but what do you guys think of the comments I posted about feeding response and deffensive response. Has anyone else noticed the similar things with particularly known agressive species. (E.murinus I do not believe to be agressive as a species..C. hortulanus I do)

Actually I personally rarely feed frozen. Most of my snakes eat stunned or still live prey. I may be considered cold blooded for doing so(pun intended) but I have never in thirty years had damage to any of my animals. Some species need the warm temp and movement to stimulate feeding response, especially the lizard eaters and arborials.

Sorry but i have seen first hand what a rodent will do to a sleeping child...I have no sympathy for them.

On the subject of first venomous, I would rather be bitten by a Popes, a copperhead or a pygmy Rattler than by an Eyelash which can be Lethal....

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I've never done a useful comparison, but had snakes that were fed live and were perfect sweethearts, and a few that have never had a single live meal and demons. My girlfriend's red tail is around 5 years old, never been fed live, and still slams his thawed rabbits like a ton of bricks and constricts them for ten minutes...

I honestly can't say as I do not keep those two species.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

There is no distinctive behavior. Always expect the unexpected. Personal expierience.
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CB

Ok I think the subject was just brushed off with a simple rule. Of course someone should always expect the unexpected. However, I was making a serious comment on the difference in feeding as compared to defensive behavior. Since I have little experience with venomous animals I was wondering if anyone has seen this behavior in different speices (to boraden the horizons if you will). I stated I have seen this behavior in large amounts with E.murinus and have noticed docile feeding with amazon tree boas. WHile my e. murinus is super docile and has no deffensive behavior toward myself (I am not saying I do not expect the unexpected and things could not change...this is simply the behavior over her history) she will also be very gently with ft prey that is not teased. The amazon tree boas are a bit different. I will use one of my males as an example. He will not strike at live or dead prey even if left in the cage over night...but if I hold it he will strike at me and hit the mouse first and coil when he has food in his mouth. If I hide my hand and place the ft mouse in front of him or my female..they will open up their mouth and take it Gently. I could go on and on about all my different snakes and their behavior...but I sitck with these because I believe them to be good examples showing difference in feeding response as comapred to deffensive behavior. Defensive behavior I have noticed in anacondas has often beed quick strikes often times not even opening up their mouth or just a "slap" with the teeth with no "bite"...obviouse defense and not feeding response. In venomous species i would highly doubt to see this behavior because that is not their means of defense. While an anaconda had a large body, hard hitting strike, and large rows of teeth...it has little need to bite to scare off as a means of defense. Venomous obviously have venom and need to bite to use it. So now that i am done with my ramble..has anyone noticed with ft prey, a snake consistantly not striking when prey item is left still. And yes I would rather be bitten by a pigmy than an eyelash viper... Eyelash vipers tend to be small and though toxic, I believe it is not the worst thing in the world. I think it is not a bad idea for a first venomous snake since a first venomous should mean a lot of snake experience. I can list many snakes I would rather be bitten by than an eyelash but I can list many many rattle snakes alone that I would not want to take a hit from over an eyelash ex. mojave green and eastern diamondback. Everyone recomends rattle snakes and copperheads for first time venomous. First, they are native to many areas in the US. I also think they make a better display animal and can be a better challenge than a copperhead...they are also smaller. Just my take on it

Death by Copperhead is extremely rare. The accompanying necrosis is more of a concern.

I do not recommend Large Rattlesnake species for beginners. I advise if you are, to go with Sistrus.

As to choosing between a Mojave and an Eyelash. It is likely that it would be easier to be bit by the Mojave. But I would not want to test the venom of either on inexperience.

There are plenty of non lethal vipers to gain that first realexperience from.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

From what I understand death by eyelash viper is rare itself...but I could be wrong in underestimating the toxiticy of its venom as I have never been bitten. As for my comparison in the snakes I mentioned...I used those 2 as examples mainly due the their level or known agression (though I disagree with people saying e. murinus is aggressive as I have worked with and keep many green anacondas as tame as anything. To be honest I would say my green is the least likely to bite of anything in my collection including ball pythons)...but that is not the point. I would like to know if people have noticed this behavior while feeding venomous snakes. I know this to occur in my snakes because I have witnessed and made note of feeding behavior and I document when each strikes prey and what the feeding circumstances are and when there is no strike and when they all out refuse. I want to know if anyone sees this with particular venomous snakes...I have not but then again I do not work with a great deal of venomous snakes as some people in here may. Since venomous snakes use venom as a defense and feeding...I am interested in finding out what people have seen in captivity with pk or ft prey where venom is not needed and the nature of the "thought" defensive aggression in the species. I am sorry if this confused people and I am not sure if anyone will respond or at least with what I was looking for but its worth a shot.

One of the reasons I use live prey is (to my experience) the lesser response to thawed food. This is because (probably) the lack of heat and/or movement. A friend of mine feeds thawed. I have to say on the same species (we both keep eyelashes and other similar species). I can see no difference in behavior nor would I expect there to be. Feed response and Defense response are two different behaviors and as such defensiveness will have nothing to do with food except a familiarity with the scent of the food bringer which would be the same-whether the food is dead or alive.

I hope this better answers your question. As to eyelashes, they appear passive till they decide you are too close. Once again it's temp. They infrequently strike tongs (even when touched) but quickly strike what is warm vigerously.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

I have a copperhead that is picky when it comes to feeding frozen/thawed. I figured this was mainly because of the body temp. issue, so I just put it in warm water once it's almost finished thawing to get the temp closer to that of a live mouse and it works every time. I'd rather do that then have to deal with the live mice... I think I hate the smell of them more than anything.
I've switched many snakes over (including that one) from live to frozen, and I have never noticed a difference when in personality when it comes to handling them. I have seen a difference in my corn snakes and bull snakes feeding response, but not in their personality when being handled. Most animals will become more aggressive when feeding it seems like. I keep my hands away from any snakes when feeding (and hots all of the time)... I wouldn't even try to approach a dog while it's eating. I don't think it's really a frozen/live issue really, just the fact that it's an animalistic feeding response.
-Will

Ah! but what is that "animalistic" feeding response based on? A combination of Scent, Vision and Body heat* (*in the case of feeders on warm blooded prey).

Remember that it takes the right stimulis to get the right response...

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."

oh, I agree. That part of the message was more about the initial post's question and the comment about the anaconda feeding response etc. And I gave the warm water idea just more for advice for people who would rather not feed live. I personally have not had any incidents with feeding live, I'd just perfer to keep a freezer full of smell-free mice/rats than a room full of stinky live ones. If you only have one, or a few snakes and don't mind making your way down to the pet store every few days for mice, and don't mind having to stick to their schedules, I don't really have a problem with it. But I know that when I come home late from work it's just a lot easier to go to the freezer and grab some mice rather than go all the way to a pet store, or a stinky rodent room for that matter. I just don't think that I can express how much I hate the smell of mice waste. lol. But you are right, in some cases, feeding live is basically a must because of certain animal's feeding responses. I've delt with this mostly in young snakes that will not take pre killed before I could switch them over. Although I did have a red tailed before that I couldn't get to eat frozen for the life of me, and I tried everything. So, as far as getting to eat the different types of food, it all depends on the animal. As far as the behavior due to the type of food, I have not noticed a difference other than the time when the animal was actually eating/killing the prey.
-Will

I completely agree that body temp makes a big difference in feeding response. This is one reason I believe many snakes to "not strike" as I have noticed when feeding ft. From my experience I have not had too much trouble feeding ft to a snake that eats live. Non feeders seem to make no difference live or dead...they are just difficult and it is more the prey item itself. As young green anacondas rarely take rodents and chicks, grocerystore chicken and reptile prey need to be utilized until the switch is made to at least scenting. I am sure some of you have the same problem with many snake eaters. From what it sounds like, your eyelash vipers seem to have a similar feeding response and defensive behavior as amazon tree boas. I wonder if you made it difficult to see you if you could get a gentle "no strike" feeding. I know it doesnt matter since it is different behavior but i would be curious. I know my anacondas do not usually confuse something as food as they check things out for a long time before they decide its an item they wish to eat. Ball pythons however, seem to coild first and ask later. I have had more ball python coils around my hand and feeding attempts on me than anything else...go figure. One way I feed my male amazon is to hold it bare handed as he will rarely take food any other way. I attribute this mainly to do with he is taking smaller mice which have less body heat when live so it does not trigger his reaction to heat enough...I would think lizards scents and birds might trigger the feeding response more as that is a more natural diet to them. Why I feed bare handed is I can always count on a strike at my hand and he always seems to take them once he hits mouse first. With an eyelash or other hot though..I doubt you want to try this theory : )

ps. to prove this..I actually had him drinking the water off a rodent thawed out in warm water as I held it in front of him. I had to wave my hand around to "spark" him up to strike at me and let him hit the rodent and take it as food and not a drink source.

I thought I answered your question completely. They act the same, but never the same.
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CB

"Tattooed freak with an attitude"

wow thanks to all the replies. y'all gave me a good amount to read...lol
again if anyone in the (NY,NJ,Conn) tri-state area feels like teaching in exchange for help around the reptile room please keep me in mind

have a good one!