Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I talked to a vet and showed him the pics. He could not say for sure what it was but has seen this same symtom in a lot of bearded dragons and said that in DB's it is caused by too much vitamin A and it is edema which is just water retention in common terms. He also said it could be fatty deposits. He does not think it is normal but it is not life threatening in the short term. He does not know long term. He said a lot of the reptile vitamins are not really properly balanced and they believe that is what causes it. But then again these guys are not bearded dragons so who knows???? Just a little more info. Tom

The causes appear to be infinite. Hypovitaminosis A (too little A) is only one possibility. The problem with vitamin A is that it can be extremely toxic if not administered correctly. I personally do not use ANY supplement that uses vitamin A; a better alternative is to use a supplement with beta-carotene (the body will transform beta-carotene into vitamin A naturally, without the risk of overdosing).

Here is a post writen by Kenneth Lopez, D.V.M. Although this was written with chameleons in mind, it applies to other organisms, including birds.

Fabián

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Edema:
by Kenneth Lopez, D.V.M.

I have been asked to discuss edema in chams. Disclaimer, I don't have definite answers to give. I do have a few conclusives and a few thoughts. First off, what is edema (oedema for those of you who drive on the wrong side of the road)? Edema is an abnormal accumulation of fluid in the cavities and intercellular spaces of the body. What are typical causes of edema? Hypoproteinemia (osmotic effect), lymphatic blockage, changes in vascular permeability, heart failure, renal disease, iatrogenic overhydration, G. I. disease, neoplasia, drug effects, inhaled toxins, sepsis, inflammation. That's about all aplicable to chams I can come up with off the top of my head. Not too many chams get pulmonary edema from chewing electrical plugs. Now lets discuss the causes I have diagnosed in the past. Hypoproteinemia: Very common. Most often due to liver disease. There is a decrease of plasma proteins due to decline of production. Increased plasma protein loss, say through the intestine, must be considered. Liver infections (bacterial or viral), parasitic lesions, hepatotoxic drugs, and vascular compromise have been causes postitively identified. Reproductive hormones have been implicated. Lymphatic blockage: Microfilaria are common in WC chams (as per Steve)and do cause lymphatic blockage. I have seen lymphatic blockage in severe burn cases. Heart failure: Rare. Bacterial endocarditis comes to mind in other reptiles. Renal disease: Probably the most common cause in my experience. Causes are many. Often drugs are used which are toxic to the kidneys. Dehydration is a big factor to the demise of the kidneys, especially when coupled with drug administration. Renal gout is very often found and will be discussed later. Now I have to add fungal as well. Inflammation, sepsis: Changes in vascular permeability often lead to edema. Inhaled toxins: I have seen many birds suffer from second hand smoke and incense use. I'm sure chams can suffer as well. I have seen lungs/air sacs of chams owned by heavy smokers with black spots all over. Hypovitaminosis A has been implicated in edema in reptiles. Thats about all I think apply to a majority of the edema cases I've seen."

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He did say hypovitaminosis A which I thought was to much but it is too little. Sorry about that. The Arizona Sonora Desert Museum donated some San Esteban Island chuckwallas to me and when they sent them they told me they do not supplement at all and their vet reccomends that I do not also because of the crappy supplements out there. Tom

I always think of the term used for people who are always "too" active (hyperactive), that helps me remember which is which~!

I had a female Chamaeleo (Trioceros) jacksonii xantholophus (whew...) once that develop an edema. I always thought it was caused by hypovitaminosis, so I began using a lot of carrots and other red-yellow vegetables in my gut-load formula, and the edema disappeared shortly after (but as Dr. Lopez said, it could be that the animal has HYPERvitaminosis, and adding more could kill it). I personally use the Sticky Tongue Farms supplement (with D3 for my animals kept inside, and without D3 for those kept outside). Even though I use it "religiously," I only supplement my adult animals once a week; gravid females and young get it a couple times a week. But I have never been a huge fan of supplements, especially for insectivorous lizards. I have found that gut-loading works much better as the risk of overdose is eliminated. Except for calcium (mainly the only reason I supplement), my animals get most of their supplements from the stuff I feed my insects. I have also been using spirulina in my cricket formula because it is considered a superfood (it's even great for us, check it out: http://www.spirulina.com/SPBSpirulina.html ).

Here is one of many formulas used for gut-loading:

http://adcham.com/html/husbandry/gutload.html

Other links:

Full composition: http://www.spirulina.com/SPBNutrition.html

Facts: http://www.spirulina.com/SPLNews98.html

Where to get it: http://www.greensuperfood.com/product.php?item=SP090G&returncat=spirulina&returnpage=0

*You can also get it at stores such as Whole Foods.

Interesting stuff!!!

Fabián

I know of others that have been using Spirulina for quite a while. I used to grind up some of my placo's algae discs when I was keeping aquarium fish, and use this as a portion of my gut load. It is supposed to be an excellent natural color enhancer in fish. That is what turned me on to using in in Crotaphytids. I never seen in noticeable differences.

I've all gutloaded with Beta-carotene, as well as Astaxanthin. I never did get get collareds either

The missing puzzle piece is out there...for color enhancement, as well as the elusive Turkey neck.

Another post from Dr. Lopez reagarding hypovitaminosis and hypervitaminosis A. There are a few grammatical errors (this was an informal post), but it was probably written very quickly.

Enjoy!

Fabián

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Vitamin A:
by Kenneth Lopez, D.V.M.

Vitamin A and it's effects are more complex and less understood than vitamin D. I am simplifying the subject for a few reasons. One is to avoid losing readers due to 3-block-long words, another is because there are a few great references that spell everything out, and third, because I don't want to work that hard right now. I know parts will be in direct disagreement with other veterinarians points of view. These are only my thoughts, do with them what you will.

The players: Carotenoids: Provitamins that occur with chlorophyll in all green plants Retinol: The form vitamin A takes in animal tissues. Usually changed from carotenoids to retinol by cells in the intestinal mucosa and/or the liver. Stored (as esters) in liver. Chylomicrons: Lets call them "escorts" for simplicity. They grab the newly formed retinol with one main mission in life, to get the retinol to the liver. Vitamin D3 (see previous post, someone should still have it) Vitamin E Fasten Seatbelts, here goes the simplified version of a complex subject! Most of the vitamin A in chams comes from the conversion of carotenoids ingested as contents of insect prey. While it has not been proven in chams, most creatures do this in the intestinal mucosal cells. The "escorts" grab the newly formed retinol and zips it to the liver for storage. The liver doles it out as needed, bound to a Retinol Binding Protein. Without this vitamin, all sorts of bad stuff happens. Problems occur with epithelial cells. Kidney tubules can get screwed up, reproductive problems, xerophthalmia and blindness, among other things. So, of course, if a little is good, a lot must be better, right? And if we sidestep the provitamins and give preformed vitamin A it has to be better, right? Well, as Andy pointed out, vitamin A can be VERY toxic. As we give more provitamins (carotenoids), the conversion to retinol slows down and diminishes problems. But, if we give PREFORMED A it bypasses the barriers and barges in unabated. No problem, the liver will store it. What happens when the liver is full? A single dose can fill all available space in the liver. In most animals, it takes WEEKS for the liver to get back to normal concentrations of vitamin A after being at maximum capacity once all vit A has been excluded from the diet. Humans may take 6 months! When the liver is full, the incoming retinol with the "escorts" get really pissed. Their only job in life, getting to the liver, has been blocked. They have no choice but to go on a systemic rampage. While retinol released from the liver with the binding proteins can enter cells, the retinol with the chylomicrons (escorts) becomes toxic. One of the many signs of this is HYPERcalcemia. That's right, too much calcium in the blood. Where does the calcium come from? It is mobilized from the bones. The cham now has a type of metabolic bone disease. The liver is swollen, edema develops, especially in the face/chin region. The kidneys are damaged or destroyed. The cham becomes anemic. Some of this is reversible, some is permanent and can be fatal quickly. So, here are some more complexities. How many times have you read posts on these lists that go something like this: "I alternate Calcium plus D3 on one day with Multi-Vitamin Powder every other day" The same people often later ask "What causes swelling under the chin of my cham?" With vitamin A, which can potentially store in the liver for up to 6 months, and vitamin D, which can store for a couple months in the liver as well, we should be seeing big problems, right? If you remember from the vitamin D post, excessive D3 is associated with calcium mobilization from the bones as well. Working together (A & D) the cham should look like Gary Larsons rubber chicken ranch, right? Actually, vitamin A and vitamin D are antagonistic (incompletely)to each other. While both may be at toxic levels, the effects are not as evident due to their interaction. The funny thing is, once signs of MBD show up, people often start shoveling in the calcium and D3, in an ALREADY hypercalcemic cham! This is kind of like hating how tired Valium makes you so taking an amphetamine with it. Some species are EXTREMELY sensitive to vitamin A. Some (few) can take a boat-load without signs of problems. Conclusion (finally!): My opinion (for what its worth) is preformed vitamin A is a medication used to treat severe cases of hypovitaminosis A and symptoms suggestive of such. It is too dangerous to use as a supplement. I use it carefully to elevate vitamin A levels. I sometimes use it to treat vitamin D toxicosis. I also use it when there is liver dysfunction. Bile salts are required for the uptake of retinol into the liver. I also use vitamin D to treat vitamin A toxicosis (along with vitamin E which seems to help) Chams do not have much opportunity to zap preformed vitamin A in the wild. There is probably some small amount in most insects, especially king mealworms that pass through the liver while eating their way through another chams body (just kidding, I always liked that wives tail). There are so many successful breeders out there who properly gut-load their insects and DO NOT use preformed vitamin A, how can it be considered a good idea to take the risk? If supplementation is needed, the provitamins are a good choice. There is another consideration on which provitamins, but that is too long for this post. Once again, these are my thoughts from my personal experiences. Your results may vary. (standard disclaimer). Discuss all concerns with your herp vet before making drastic changes to your husbandry. If anyone desires references for any of this info, I can send it upon request.

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