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We are reposting this since it was taken down earlier, I assume I violated the forum rules SORRY not my intention!! I was just trying to give some clarification on my Sunset Boas. I haven't been able to really get into the forum much, but recently have read some past and previous posts from people inquiring on its genetics and so forth. D & M Breeders is the ORIGINATOR of this boa and this is the third season we produced this remarkably flawless boa. Hogg Isle x Hypo gives you a cross, breeding these crosses back to each other gives you 25% supers, these supers are the result of the two hypos that are carrying the Hogg Isle gene. Our lineage of these crosses has produced 3 seasons running, the supers that we named sunsets. Sunsets are the result of the Hogg Isle gene and the hypo gene fused together. To date, our lineage of these 2 genes has proved to be the only one on the market that produces this flawless boa.
We named the boas sunsets since there colors resemble an actual sunset. These boas are genetically dominant the cross is co-dominant. The lineage has come from years of very selective breeding. I hope this gives a little clarification on the issue and I am including a pic for your pleasure.

I almost hate to play devils advocate on this one, but can't help it. Don't get me wrong, the animals are very nice. But, many people defend them as a true "morph", when they're actually nothing more than a cross. The name itself is misleading, and the price much inflated IMO, but that will work itself out as people will pay what they chose to pay, and if you can get what your asking...more power to you! (and good for you!!!) Now, Mike W. from Basically Boas crossed an argentine and salmon and produced a cross, he coined salmontines. The name itself implicates the cross salmon(salmon boa) tines(as in argentine). Mike has produced 50% salmontines, 75% salmontines, and now has bred the 50% salmontines back to each other(as you've done with they hypo x hoggs) and produced possible supers. If he chose to use the same marketing ploy, he could simply call the possible supers, uh....let's say...Sun RISE boas. But, at the end of the day, they're all still JUST crosses. No matter how many times you CROSS them back to each other, they're CROSSES. The only part of them that is a "morph" is the hypo gene. Again, your "sunsets" are awesome looking boas, but I do think the representation is a little skewed. I also thought Tip Powers did this cross ORIGINALLY???? Well, just some thoughts to possibly fuel an educated discussion. As you pointed out there has been several posts regarding your animals as of late, and it would be great to have a universal understanding of them. Thanks for your info...take care!

Paul

Originally Tip Powers did start the crosses, but did not follow through. I purchased the babies from Tip Powers and I produced 3 supers that were extremely distinquishable. I then even called Tip Powers and gave him the good news on what I had produced. Tip and I both agreed that those 3 that stood out, would be the dominant supers. Since then I have done this three times. I have also bred one of my 02 sunsets to a normal colombian boa and though she partially slugged out. The fifteen babies that were still born were all hypos, proving that my hypos are supers. The selective lineage that is in the sunsets speaks. Originally, they were misunderstood as a new morph, but was corrected and are called crosses, but to better market these snakes, people confuse Hogg x Hypo as an actual sunset, when the Hogg x Hypo is really the cross and the Sunset is the Hybrid, not a new morph. We are the only one who has produced it and never priced it at $12,000.00, all my sales where private, except for one sale at the Chicago show in 02, that consisted of the crosses not the actual sunsets, that at the time for clarification purposes, and for people who really dont understand the genetics. I called them hets. It was an easier way of helping people understand, not to confuse them. This is why I now clarify it on my site.

I agree that the name Sunset is a bit confusing but it sounds so much better than Super Hypo Hog Cross doesn't it. I also agree that it is not a true morph and that it is severely overpriced. I also think they are beautifulboas. Eventually others will produce "Sunsets" and many different pattern variations will be apparent because the pattern of Super Salmons is extremely variable. Some may have bow ties, and some may have stripes or large blotches, but most will have reduced pattern like D&M's. Is it OK to call these animals Sunsets or does each breeder need to come up with their own catchy name?

Thanks for the information. I found the info you had previously given me very limited and misleading. I spoke with you briefly in Chicago in 2002 and you wouldn't give any info on the background of these boas. I even asked if it was some kind of cross and you said no that it was a new "morph".
Then is 2003 at Chicago you did explain to me in layman's terms how your Sunsets were produced. I realized right away that Sunsets were merely Supers based on their pattern and color compared to the "Hets" you had on your table. I asked and you insisted that other Hog/Hypo crosses could not make a Sunset boa and that others had tried and failed. You proclaimed that your line is the only way to get Sunsets? You had me very confused so I am glad you could clear that up for me.

I’m not really that familiar with the term Sunset Boa, but the pink hypo in the picture is indeed a pretty boa. If it was produced by Breeding super Hypo x Hogg Island crosses together to get that color and they breed out true and consistent then yes I hate to say it, it is a Morph. Most of the Morphs on the market today are locality crosses of BCI boas and a Hogg X Salmon Super is no exception. It is by no means a Hybrid as they are the same species, in fact they are even the same sub-species (BCI) so they are not even considered an intergrade in taxonomy terms.
Just because the Morph itself is not a singular specific genetic mutation does not make it a non-morph? The Salmon Hypo is a genetic mutation and the Hogg Island (which is a natural Hypo of a different line) is a genetic mutation. That would make the Sunset boa a combination of multiple genetic mutations such as a Ghost or a Snow Boa. These Boas are not considered crosses just because the Anery part of the Ghost or snow is Colombian and the Hypo or Albino part of the Ghost or Snow is central American. They are combined to make their own morph name.
Now on the other hand, with the “genetic makeup” of the Sunset Boa being known, of course others are going to reproduce the line. Unless someone is willing to copy right a specific Morph of Boa (which I don’t think it is possible). It will be copied. Seeing that the Sunset boa was not made with a specific and original genetic mutation, the copies would then also be called Sunset boas. Everyone who produced their own snow boas from an Anery and an Albino did not come up with their own cool names for them. They used Snow Boas like they should have. D & M had the right to name the Boas being the first to bring them to market, but because they did not produce a Morph with an original or new genetic mutation, they also have to accept the fact that they will be copied and be glad that it will take several generations to do it and that they have the jump on all others.
As far as the price goes, they have the right to charge what they wish for their own snakes. If someone wants to pay it they will and if they do not the will not, it is not my place to tell them they charge too much or too little for there snakes. I personally feel that many snakes are too high in price and that the hobby has become a bit money hungry. I don’t have a solution for this though. I try to price my animals below the going market rate to stem the tied of the price wars. Unfortunately it does not seem to work LOL, So I just go with the flow for now and try to make nice trades for the animals I want, Bartering for animals is more in line with this hobbies starting roots anyway.
These are of course just my opinions, you don’t have to like them, agree with them or even read them, but please don’t take them personally as they are made for discussion purpose only and not to offend.
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

no post
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Randall L Turner Jr.
www.aircapitalconstrictors.com

Great post Hoppy. With that explanation I can see how it would be considered a morph. First let me say that I think Sunsets are awesome. As far as price goes it is up to the seller and the buyer and since this morph is fairly new and does take a few generations to produce it should be priced higher than single mutation one generation morphs. I personally wouldn't pay $5000 for one but that is my opinion. I am sure there is someone out there who would and has. It is true that this is not a cross if considering standard classification but many feel that Hogs deserve their own subspecies classification and others frown on crossing locales. IMO crossing locales and subspecies is becoming very common in our hobby and my outlook on this changes as I become more accepting of these new morphs.
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Jaremy Douglas

Very well said.

For your viewing pleasure I tried to capture some color out of one of the males a while back.

This somewhat demonstrates the colors put out by this lineage but not nearly to capacity.

Photos are so difficult to represent them. Here you can see the orange, futia pink, blue speckling, yellow, the erratic diminishing pattern.

Enjoy and thanx for an open mind.

I have to say, this is one of the strongest, most non arguementative statements I have heard yet about the Sunset Hypo Boa.

Very well put and specifically explained.

You deserve a standing ovation for the sense you have made on this matter.

I truly Love the Sunset Boas and have managed several of them since the origination. I believe it is one of the most beautiful and captivating hypos produced to date.

Every one of them has a look uncommon to the other and holding them in person has a certain groove I can't quite get with other ordinary Hypos. I wish everyone had the opportunity to see it in person.

Thanx for the input.

I am one of Sunset Boas biggest fans and happen to own a few.

I'm not real sure I'd classify the Hogg Island boas as genetic mutations. By standard definition you could call them "natural hypos" in comparison to mainland BCI. But, if they truly should be a seperate sub species, and all the Hog Island boas appear the same way, how would you term any of them "reduced"? That is to say, if ALL Hogg Island boas appear one way, is there really a "reduction" of anything? You have to have a starting point to base any amount of reduction and/or increase. If taxonomist had been lazy with Argentine boas and lumped them with all other BCI, would we then call them natural melanistics? Has anyone bred normal appearing Hogg/hypo crosses back to each other to see if the Hogg Island form of suppossed "natural hypomelanism" is recessive? I would assume if Hoggs were natural hypos, when you bred hypos and/or salmons to Hoggs, you'd produce supers the first breeding if Hoggs were "co-dominant". And if they are truly natural hypos, but recessive, then the normal appearing offspring should produce hypos, correct? If the "natural hypo" gene is not genetically inheritable via the two above means, then how can you term them "genetic mutations"? This would further prove them an entirely seperate sub-species IMO. Well, these are just some thoughts. I'd enjoy feedback on this though. Take care!

Paul

Well, this is where we as hobbyist have a hard time understanding. We tend to think of genetic traits in the simplest forms. Co-dominant, recessive, or dominant. Though it is true that these are the most common genes we produce with Morphs in Boas, such as Albino (simple recessive), Hypo (simple co-dominate), Ghost (simple combination). There are many more complex genes that work in specific populations that combine to cause the locality traits that we become accustom to. The Hypo gene that is working in a Hog has proven over and over again to be a co-dominate form of hypomelinism. You breed a Hog to a normal Colombian and you will get a BCI that has a Hypo look of a Hog Island Boa, ie genetic. However it is not the same trait of hypo that is working in the Salmon and that is the reason why they are not Supers right off the bat. Furthermore, the Hog Island boas have multiple genes all working together from years of insular inbreeding that produce the overall Hog look. These differences have not yet (and now that the wild population is extinct, never will) reach the point that would require a different ssp level. So yes the Hog is a Hog because of genetic mutations, just not a simple mutation that we can produce over generational breeding, it took god thousands of years to make it.
Just some more input from me
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Jim Hopkins "Hoppy"
Hopkins Holesale Herps
Hopfam1@aol.com

Your exactly right, but at the same time with this arguement you could call any phenotype a genetic mutation. They are what they are due to thousands of years of breedings of similar animals within specified geographic regions. With the hogg x col. breeding producing hypos(though different than salmons/hypos) are they really "hypos" at all, or just a 50% cross showing the variance of the two different (although not recognized as such) sub-species? Which brings me back to Hoggs not being "natural hypos", but just what they are...Hogg Island boas. There are several BCI's that upon visual inspection and coupled with geographic info, seem they should be reclassified, but as you mentioned we're hobbyists, and I'm sure there are things outside of our "realm" we may not fully comprehend with such matters. I do have to stress to you though, I'm not trying to argue with you, I'm just enjoying the small discussion this has brought into the forum. They're few and far between anymore. In regards to the price of the sunsets...I tried to be clear on that in my original post that if he can get what he's asking, more power to him, and I'm glad for him. There is nothing wrong with making money! In the end, your original point is probably spot on, I'm just enjoying the discussion as I have nothing to gain or lose either way! Take care!

Paul

Hoppy,
You have just given the BEST explanation of this whole Hypo/Hogg genetics scenerio, and I agree with you 100%. Thank you for this great explanation you have related to everyone.
I personally own a salt and pepper Hogg Isle that only has natural hypo showing in its tail and to my understanding there are none left like this in the wild. I personally love the Hoggs and therefore will continue to working with them for years to come, along with my sunset project.