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This is a revisit, but now I have an allegedly-knowledgeable herp enthusiast telling me that she's a "blotched" king. I say no. To me, this is a Florida king, or taxonomically a Peninsula intergrade, L. g. getula x floridiana, and a "blotched" king refers to the Apalachicola variant ("goini" ) . Opinions?

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MichaelB

n/p

1st, nice snake!

Second, I have seen forum posts of snakes in here before, the snakes look that dark, and they are labeled as "Brooks". I think from Brandon Osborne. My understanding from him and the forum is that he specializes in Brooks Kings - and I have seen his posts here for years so he has a good amount of credibility and experience. Brandon may tell you that Brooks Kings can look that dark as hatchlings and will lighten up with age: I would believe him. You should email him and ask him to take a look.

Next, I go to a lot of snake shows and usually the Brooks Kings hatchlings (rememeber, these are the real Florida Kings) are much, much lighter. This means nothing though - because selective breeding can make anything better. I wish somebody who has actually collected these animals would post and tell us what they really look like in the wild!!!

Peter Jolles

Even though a "FL king" may be dark, it can turn into one of the lightest kings you'll ever see. Here's an example.....
This dark hatchling brooksi....

turned into this light yearling.

which was produced by this WHITE female.

And this hatchling...

into something like this female, which produced the baby.

For some reason, I've always had trouble selling baby Brooksi at shows. I think this is due to the dark colors that babies exibit. The average person is usually in awe at the sight of an adult axanthic brooksi, but they can't believe that a black and purple baby will turn into such a beautiful light blue adult. Like this male. A Lemke line animal I produced in 1997.

Hypos have always seemed to be the first to go at shows, due to the "bright" appearance.

I think the animal pictured in the first post could be an average brooksi......not the typical "florida" as Thomas mentioned......but that's my opinion. It's a nice looking snake either way. Sorry for all of the pics.

Brandon Osborne

These are not the same animal, but are from the same clutch.

Brandon Osborne

great lookin snake ,,, and brandons are stunning as well its just my opinion that its an average fla.king,,also brandon i can see that neither of those baby pics match the adults shown they have totally different head patterns could you post pics of the ontogenetic change in 1 snake from hatchling to adult? i would love to see 1 that dark as a baby turn that light as an adult.
thomas davis

hah hah

if brandon says they will lighten up that much, i beleive him. i just have personally never seen such a dark baby lighten up that much as an adult, and im sure he has the pics to proove it and was probably just showing general examples.
thomas davis

There is a way to tell how the brooksi will lighten up. I made a post about this about two weeks ago.
Before there were hypo brooksi or axanthic brooksi, people had to sift through several dealers offspring to pick the ones that would turn out the yellowest or lightest. There are many deciding factors and "telltale" signs. One way to tell is compare all the clutchmates to each other and then pick the ones with the most dots or white flecks between the bars. This selective process can be applied to normal, axanthics and other recessives as well. Of course anyone who has bred a few clutches of brooksi knows a little of how to pick the best holdbacks for themselves

My point in all this is I can tell that the babies that Brandon posted would turn out to be screamers. While someone else may look at them and not SEE the difference between a normal dark brooksi and one that will turn out exceptional.

I corrected myself and said that the hatchlings pictured were not the same snakes, but the white phase was from the same clutch. Also that the hatchling sitting in the cup WAS PRODUCED by the patternless yellow female pictured below it. I'll have to get better pics of one of the yearlings from that yellow female.....you'll flip when you see it.

Brandon Osborne

brandon could you post pics of 1 dark phase baby like in your pics throughout to adult showing it change that light?not starting anything here but i just have personally never seen one that dark turn that light regardless of parents i just dont see it , dont get me wrong i know they will lighten up to a degree i just find it hard to beleive a dark baby like in the pic will turn out like one of those light yellow adults and would love to see a series of pics showing that in the same snake from hatchling to adult,,,,,,,,
thomas davis

I'll see if I can't relocate some pics of that white yearling female. She was just as dark as the hatchling in the pics I posted. I have an 8 month old pic of her, so I'll see if I can't find it. I don't have any dark brooksi or floridana, so I don't produce anything but light stock. If I can't find the pics, I'll keep one and document the change this year. It happens all the time.

Brandon Osborne

I don't have any dark brooksi or floridana, so I don't produce anything but light stock. ,,, then what are the pics you posted??those are what i would consider dark babies?, do you not have pics of one as dark in the picture lightning up that much as an adult? a series of hatchling thru adulthood
thomas

Have you ever heard of ontogenetic color shift? I've raised up DOZENS of dark babies that turned out super light. How many brooksi do you have again? The only kingsnakes I keep are Brooksi and Apalachicola kings. They are the only kings I kept for the last 10 years. I guess the speckled kings you produce are going to stay mostly black with the typical black king (nigra) pattern on them......no speckling as they grow? If you're buying baby brooksi that are already light, I want in. I've never seen any. I've seen them with slight speckling between cross bars, but never light. I'm not trying to wage a war here, but I can't stand when people try to discredit me when they have no idea.

Peace.
Brandon Osborne

Brandon, I can't speak for Thomas, but I do not sense any effort at all to discredit you. It's apparent to me, from your years of posting and from the many respectful comments of others (including Thomas, above! ) that you are among the most experienced of all in the field of L. g. floridiana. You certainly have my respect.

I also would like to see a series of pics showing the ontogenetic change over time in the same snake. This is in no way meant to challenge or discredit your assertion that it happens all the time (dark neonates becoming very light adults, or "screamers" as Rainer called them) . I just think it would be cool to see a photographic example showing the changes occurring over time in the same specimen.

My one and only Florida King (which regrettably started all this! ) Has lightened some in her first year, but not nearly as much as in your second pic that shows a yearling from the same clutch as the neonate in your 1st pic. That tells me she probably is not a true Brooksi, but rather an intergrade. In the next couple months I'll get a "one year later" pic of her, and post it here for all to compare.
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MichaelB

calm down just asking to see the change in one individual from hatchling to adulthood, not broad comparasins as pictured above,but one individual also as stated above i just have personally never seen such a dark baby turn so light, i do know they lighten up just never saw such a dark one lighten up that much as in the adult in the pics,,, and brandon i do understand.,,,, and btw l.g.nigra are black when born yes very speckled loosing specks w/age ,,, speckled kings on the otherhand l.g.holbrooki are drk brown(not black)and actually gain speckles w/age
thomas davis

calm down just asking to see the change in one individual from hatchling to adulthood, not broad comparasins as pictured above,but one individual also as stated above i just have personally never seen such a dark baby turn so light, i do know they lighten up just never saw such a dark one lighten up that much as in the adult in the pics,,, and brandon i do understand.,,,, and btw l.g.nigra are black when born yes very speckled loosing specks w/age ,,, speckled kings on the otherhand l.g.holbrooki are drk brown(not black)and actually gain speckles w/age
thomas davis

Sorry to jump the gun. I just read it as you were calling me out, and basically calling me a liar. No offense taken and I hope you feel the same way. I'm holding back several hatchlings this year, so I'll get pics of each individual in one month increments. I will change your mind on this matter. lol.

I guess it all depends on where you get your holbrooki as far as color goes. The speckleds I used to produce were jet black with golden yellow.

BTW, I love the Yuma kings you posted last week. They are one of the true gems of the kingsnake world and hard to come by. Very nice looking animals! Let me know if you plan on letting some go.

thanks
Brandon Osborne

I know the coloration varies, but all of the native specimens I've seen here in central OK (I've seen quite a few) are black with yellow specks. I have never seen one locally with a brownish background color or with white speckles. They all have an overall greenish appearance when seen from a distance. That's most likely a local tendency, and may be due in part to the fact that our locals are not true holbrookis, but rather are speckled/desert intergrades. I'm sure there are other locales where they tend more toward brown/white, and in fact have seen a few pics showing those colors.
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MichaelB

well the ones in e.tx and w.la. are brown some very dark brown but not black(not that ive seen anyway) and they tend to be more yellow specked in tx and cream to white specks in la. at anyrate they are great snakes heres on from harris county tx.
thomas davis

in that pic it looks black and yellow when in fact in the sun you can see its just very dark brown and not black put up against a l.g.nigra its like night&day drk brown and black i will get some pics soon,,,,,hopefully,,,,
thomas

hey no problem, and in know way was i callin you a liar,i would just really love to see a series of pics of hatchling thru adult with one of those very dark babies like in your other post turning white or yellow like some of your adults its an amazing process. yeah i didnt produce any pure yuma's this year lost my female,but have a nice holdback from last year that will go nextyear for sure,one thing i did this year is breed my yuma male to a hi-yellow speckled(l.g.holbrooki), they look pretty cool some call it muttin i call it a nat. intergrade within a ssp, at anyrate they resemble l.g.splendida 1out of 10 has a solid black belly(characteristic of yumensis)all are being kept and if ever sold would be represented as yumensisXholbrooki,some look pure yuma now,im curious to see if they will speckle more w/age as w/holbrooki its also my opinion that basically thats all splendida are an intergrade of e.coast getula and w.coast getula anyway, i will get some pics hopefully soon
peace
thomas davis

>>>>>but they can't believe that a black and purple baby will turn into such a beautiful light blue adult. Like this male. A Lemke line animal I produced in 1997.

Brandon, I know there are 2 lines of Axanthics. I've seen a few of those "purple" babies at the shows, but never picked any up because I wasn't sure if they were the ones that turn blue as adults (the ones I like) or the ones that turn a whiter color. My, question is, do all blue/purple neonates turn out to be blue adults? or could they still be the whiter line? Thanks!
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Ace

Ace, most turn blue as adults, but some will be a silver-blue. Watch for the hatchlings with white tipping around the blue. Those are the ones that tend to turn more silver from what I've noticed.

Brandon Osborne

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Ace

Iagree with you, it looks to me like a "Peninsula intergrade." Bands appear to wide to be a plain Floridana. The person calling it a "Blotched" king may still be going on the old belief that the Blotched,Apalachicola,etc. were a Florida/Eastern cross, which now is thought to not be the case. The area around Jacksonville, Florida has kings that look a lot like yours.

Todd

For your thoughts and compliments. Peter and Brandon, you also have some gorgeous animals there!

Whether she's a Florida King, Brooksi, or Peninsula Intergrade, it seems we all agree that she's not a "blotched" king.

I wish I knew more about her background, but I know nothing of her source location or lineage. I hesitate to call her a "mutt," but to me she's just a generic Florida King. There was only one other hatchling to choose from at the time, presumably a sibling, which looked nearly identical but was a bit shorter.

Thinking she's an intergrade, I figured she probably wouldn't change much with age. But after reading your replies, it seems I'll just have to watch and wait to see if maybe she trends more toward a more "typical" Brooksi as an adult. She's already become a fair amount lighter since the pic was taken last fall, although at 1 year she's not nearly as light as the yearling in Brandon's second pic. Time will tell.
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MichaelB

I agree with you, although I'm certainly no expert. That snake is a nice one, and will only get better with age. Congrats, regardless what subspecies it is.

That is (what will be as an adult) a yellow phase Florida intergrade.

Frank
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"The luxury of not getting involved departed with the last lifeboat Skipper..."