Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You might be thinking 50k is outrageous for a Lesser and by all rights any snake over $500 should be as well but we are living in a time where rarity and uniqueness take precedence over the almighty buck.
The balloon price in the Lesser market is probably one that has people wondering why the ridiculous price. But what other morph out there can give you as much potential as the Lesser Platties?
Other co-dom morphs might give you 50% visual offspring when bred to a normal and the chance of a super when bred together.

There is only one co-dom animal that I know of that gives you more than a 50 dollar normal sibling parked next to it's Lesser sibling and when bred together affords you the opportunity to produce 4 awesome snakes that are very unique animals, Lessers, Platinums, Leusistics and of course their normal appearing siblings with a hidden trait of which is worth more than 50 bucks.

We have het Lucy's (Snoopy Line) and Lessers, but we are more excited with what the Lesser offers over the het Lucy's.
This year we have been working to make a handful of Lesser crosses and looking forward to seeing Lesser het/ghosts, Lesser Lemon Pastels, Lesser Pastels, Lesser het/Pieds and our ultimate favorite project is the Lesser Spider and ultimately the Platty Spider (next year).
To date we have a couple of Lesser X normal clutches incubating with the good stuff (crosses)coming within the next couple of months.
This will be an extremely exciting year for us and we hope that you all have great successes with all your projects.

This is only my opinion and I would enjoy to hear you thoughts on the Lesser, both pro and con.

Regards,

Jack

I agree that the Lesser project is the hottest thing going. The refreshing aspect of this project is that Ralph Davis is clear that the genetics are still somewhat unproven and complex. Until a white snake is bred to a normal, we don't really know what's going on here. Even that pairing may only add to the mystery.

We do know that lessers produce white snakes regardless of the genetics... and that alone is worth some money.

Is it worth 50K? Probably, in the long run.

There are a number of other lines out there though. Pete Kahl and some other unproven lines. How does this factor into the value eqaution? The lesser offers the added value of the hypo trait but, how long would that take to bring that out with ghosts?

I believe the main factor that drives the lesser price is that those who are lucky enough to own them are smart enough to wait for the genetics to prove out. If someone is willing to throw that kind of money at them, they'll take it. That's not to imply that it's an unwise investment but, only extremely risky.

I'm not too hyped up about the hypo aspect of the lessers. I think white snakes appeal to the masses, herpers or not. Pied, lucys, even albinos catch everyones eye and don't fade out with age. I like the belief that lessers are very hardy compared to pieds and albinos.

Good discussion!!!

Jim
www.exoticpetsupply.net

Link

Some of us get ragged on for giving our opinions, but if I had 50K to spend, it would be going twards a lesser platty for sure.

Good luck
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CB

"Tattooed freak with an attitude"

Care to post pics of the het Snoopy line, perhaps with the lesser? It would be cool to see belly pics of both too. Are you planning on crossing the two lines? It will be fun to see how all of the different leucy type balls might be related.

We are not going to cross them any time soon as we would like to produce seperate lines initially. The reason for this is that one has blue eyes and the other black. Not that we wouldn't try in the future.

i agree with you 100% i think although 50K is alot of money for anything let alone a snake, that lesser platinums are well worth it, with most dom and codom morphs we see at most two morphs the het and and super, with lesser platinums, we have lesser, plattys, lesser sibs, lucys, and still havent fully explored lesser x lesser.

this doesnt even take into account that the lesser itself is a gorgeous mutation, which will lead to a number of great 'desginer' animals.

the lesser platinum is hands down my most exciting project, and i too cant wait to start crossing, it into other morphs including the spider

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Guy
db Reptiles.

50k is more than outrageous for any snake....it's right down ridiculous. BUT...if I was in the fortunate position of being able to spend that kind of money on a snake.....I would buy one without hesitation. The Lesser is without a doubt the most mysterious morph to date. All you gotta do is look at what's going on on RDR's birthing page.....Blue eye lucies...daddy plattys aka platinums.............super lessers??? produced from lesser x lesser..they sure the hell aren't "normal" lessers. And look at some of the lessers produced from lesser to normal.....some of these lessers aren't "normal" lessers either. Plus look at the lessers John hatched out with his lesser....And he hatched lesser pastels too.

The lesser will rule for years to come....the potential with this morph is unlimited.

The best of fortune to you with your lesser projects.....can't wait to see a Lesser Pied!....Yep!......or even better...a Lesser Pastel Pied....YEPPER!!

Joe and Wes
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I think the lessers are way overpriced, and over hyped.They are a 20-25k animal but not any more.I think anyone who spends 50k on this morph will be burned badly.OF COURSE, all the people who already own them are going to agree that they are worth the money.Are any of you guys buying more at that price?I didnt think so.If you guys bought a lesser for 25k and produce 10 babies from a couple of normal females,isnt a $250,000 return on your 25k enough? I think this is nothing more than unadulterated greed and price gouging.I hope and pray that a mojave x mojave breeding produces a white snake and then the lesser market will crash like the stock market in 1927.If a pair of mojaves costs 25k and a pair of lessers are 100k and they both produce a white snake...there goes your market.Unless mojaves suddenly become 50k snakes too.By the way, isnt a few people conspiring to fix a price considered an illegal monopoly??? Sell your lessers for whatever you want,they are your animals.Get what you can for them.I just dont think they`re worth it. Mark Petros

The Mojaves price will skyrocket. We have a clutch that is hatching out from the lesser platty to the mojave in 12 days and if there is a white snake one would have to say the mojave is infact het for leucistic. IF it does happen I know we aren't going to give away a lucy project. It will make the mojave worth considerably more money if this does indeed happen. We will see

Joe and Wes
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I really hope that combo produces a lucy for you guys. Mark

10 to 15k!!! I didn't think so. The Pinstripe is worth all of 25k and I feel it's worth every penny, but what does the Pinstripe produce? Oh yeah a Pinstripe and what about their sibs...maybe trade them for snake food at your local pet store. It's a no brainer that a morph that makes more than 1 morph is worth more than the cost of 1 morph!! Take a Bumble bee for instance you can make 3 morphs and or cross morphs from it. Is it worth as much as a morph that only reproduces itself. Simple economics here and that would be a resounding DUHH!!

And by the way I'm in the process of acquiring another Lesser as we speak and believe me it costs quite a bit more than your future Pinstripe.
My pair of Lessers did cost me way over 50k and I bought them for 1 reason and both the money and the white snake were secondary to my goal for purchasing them. I bought mine to produce a Platty Daddy. See Mark some of us get into these morphs not only for the money but for the excitement of seeing one of these animals in our collection.

Further more if the Mojave produces a white snake then that would be awesome. But that is only 2 morphs from 1 snake just like all the rest. The co-dom and dominate version of the same snake. It still doesn't get you to the value of the Lesser. Think of it this way......it's like having a triple het for something, OF COURSE it's worth more!! Did you think we were going to be giving these animals away? Don't buy one and maybe your money would be better off in a savings account earning 2% interest so that you won't get burned like I'm going to get burned with my Lesser investment......Go figure!!

Thanks for the con on the Lesser because we have seen allot of pros already, except that you didn't state why it was not worth more than 20 to 25k. Oh yeah you didn't mention hype, unadulterated greed, price gouging, illegal monopoly and I want to thank you for the facts and clarification.......if that is what you consider them!

See you at Daytona,

Jack Briggs

I agree with you that a pinstripe is worth every bit of 25k,but i feel that from a sheer numbers standpoint a pinstripe makes more sense because there are a lot fewer of them out there than lesser plattys.Yes, there is alot you can do with lessers but for 50k i`d rather have a pinstripe,a cinnamon pastel,a mojave and a few thousand dollars left over.Here are 3 morphs that are all virtually untapped that all carry tremendous potential.I know You arent going to get burned by a lesser platty investment because you purchased them before the price increase.Good for you.I`m saying in MY OPINION,that it makes more sense to purchase other morphs.That you would do better producing some of the other morphs and that they would be more marketable.I think if you spent 50k today on a lesser,that you wont be able to sell them for anywhere near that when you produce them.I think that your Banana ball/whitesmoke is a very good investment.I`d much rather buy that for 50k than the lesser.Honestly,if you had a choice between a lesser and a banana/whitesmoke at this point which would you rather have.You asked for opinions,pro and con and i gave you mine,period.Unlike you,I`m not trying to make this personal.I`m evaluating the morph,not you. On a separate note,please dont insult me with the inference that i have nothing more creative to do with my money than make 2% in a bank account.Sorry Jack, I wont be at Daytona this year.But I really hope you decide to come to Tinley Park this fall.Best wishes,Mark

I was just looking for intelligent arguements for the pricing on the Lessers. I don't believe you stated any factual arguement on the subject and as far as not making it personal, it was you who referred to the Lesser owners as price gouging, being greedy and doing some illegal monopoly thing. What was that supposed to accomplish?

The statement about the buyer getting burned and the market going to colapse like the 1927 Stock market crash was flat out ridiculous. How did you expect me to respond to that statement on investing your money? I'm sure you are quite capable of being creative with your money and obviously the Lesser isn't in the cards for you.

We have yet to explore the full scope on the genetics of the Lessers and for that matter maybe there's more to it and another price hike in the future for those poor buyers that paid 50k. Maybe not! The point is the Lesser offers a wide range of morphs, all of which are worth allot today and the future!!

I really do appreciate your opinion or any opinion but back it up with facts on why you have those opinions. Not just banter that gives us no meat to have a legitimate arguement over.

So let me get this straight. You think a Pinstripe is worth 25k and the Lesser is worth 20k. How much would an equal amount of offspring be worth then if you had a 6 egg clutch from each? Say there is 3 visuals of each per clutch. The value is in the Lesser clutch because those normal appearing sibs have some hidden genetics that provide you with more potential......that is what my whole point is.

Mark I'm really not trying to make this personal and I will see you at Tinley. Hopefully you will like some of the Lessers I bring there!

My arguement is that although there are lots of things that you can do with a lesser.I`d rather have a pinstripe because there are far less of them out there,and I personally find them a much more attractive morph.In addition to that, the other 25k could enable a person to purchase a cinnamon pastel and a mojave.I feel the genetics of these other 2 morphs is virtually untapped and holds tremendous potential.I like the diversification of 3 morphs versus one, i dont like putting all my eggs in one basket.I also feel that it will be easier to sell 10,15,and 25k animals down the road as opposed to 50k animals. Here`s a proposition for you, you invest your money in lessers and i`ll put mine in the 3 aforementioned morphs.We`ll both produce babies and both reap tremendous legal returns on our investments.We are just choosing different paths to achieve similiar goals.If there`s anything else you`d like to discuss feel free to e-mail me personally at ballpython777@yahoo.com Best wishes, Mark Petros

Has a sibling x ANYTHING produced a white snake to date? Look at Ralph's birth record, I don't see any sibling Lesser's producing anything cool. Unless I missed it. What clutch #?

Jeff, Still waiting on more breeding results. But they were an ingredient in making a platty. Not sure what clutch # though.

Ans the Lucys? Has a Lucy been reproduced from a sibling yet? Wasn't everyone roasting Clark et al for charging $50K for the Fire Balls when it wasn't proven yet? This doesn't make sense and seems rather hyocritical.

One more thing, off topic, what about the Butter Balls? They look so damn similar. That would be AMAZING if a Lucy popped out of one of those eh?

Best of luck to everyone in the platty game. Its always been my favorite morph. Even when no white snakes existed. Totally.

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Glad I'm not the only one who thinks the Butter & Lesser look the same.
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CB

"SOULFLY"

.
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CB

"SOULFLY"

The Butter and the Lesser are 2 differant snakes entirely. Hard to tell at a young age but as they both Mature the Butter seems to take on more a faded appreance.Butters look alot more similar to platty daddy without the washed out sides. Heres a few pics to show my butter, and if you go Ralphs site and look at the collection pages you can clearly see how close platty daddy and the adult butters look.I have a butter now,but you can bet that I will be dropping the coin next year to get my hands on some of that platty gene.

[img]http://www.spiderballs.net/gallery/albums/userpics/10003/ouside-c.jpg[img]
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.
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CB

"SOULFLY"

LesserXnormal sib should only apply to animals Ralph produces from his original Platty or one of the new ones. Anything produced from a lesser would be considered 50% if that, since a lot of the lessers themselves came from a lesser breeding.

Eric
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www.ESReptiles.com

That is true about all morphs, you will always have a chance to buy one later on at a cheaper price. But if you are to play the game you need to be at the forefront of the mophs. You can't play catch up, you must be competing and that means getting into a morph at its infancy.

If you are not looking to play the game and just want to keep it a hobby than wait. But if you want to be a player you can't afford to wait. You must buy as soon as you have the chance. What do you think made NERD, VPI, Ralph, BHB etc... so successful? They took the chance, spent the money and have been rewarded.

You have to stay ahead of the pack. The competition for a new designer snake or importing a new morph is huge and will only get more intense as new players enter the market. If you want to play you will have to pay.

Is the Lesser worth 50K? HELL YEAH!!! As everyone has stated, the possibilities are endless. What other snake gives you so many different directions to take? NONE! The fact no one knows all the particulars about the genetics will only keep the market value up for some time. Who is going to sell a Lesser for 25K when we still don't know all the possiblilities? NO, itelligent person would! You will always have the people undercutting the market but where's the intelligence in that? They lose money, because the value is there and they will sell. Why buy from someone who doesn't value the snake you are buying? They will only hurt your investment by continually undercutting the market. If I am buying a high end snake I am paying for it. I would rather give my money to someone who will protect the market and my investment then try to chop it down to make a quick buck. Sorry, way off topic but it would have been brought up.

Anyway the Lesser is worth all of 50K. Try and value it this way: iF you get Lessers, Platinums and Lucys from one snake; you basically get three morphs from one. What is the market value of a Lucy right now? 75K? 100K? Somewhere in there. Hets are selling for 35K! Now whats the value of a Platinum? 40K? 50K? 60K? You could easily get 40K! And then the Lesser. You buy it for 50K and you have the snake you need to produce a Lucy for 75K (we will take the low end) a Platty for 40K and more Lessers?

How do you not see the value in this snake? It's way too obvious!! It may even be undervalued at 50K!!

You watch, in a few years all of the people who are saying there is no way it is worth 50K are going to be kicking themselves because they will be so far behind in the project! Don't miss the train!

Rudd

I am not going to argue that the Lessers are not worth 50k. What I will argue is how many people out there can afford and are willing to pay the 50K? Thats what will lower the market. They are only worth what people are willing to pay. Right now a few people will pay that...if I had 50K to spend on a a snake. I would choose the route of buying more than 1 snake...cinamon...spiders...pieds...some of the other more obscure morphs. There are more people willing to spend $1000 on a snake than $50,000.

Michael Enriquez

Mark, since you are not a greedy person and are not into price gouging are you going to sell me a Mojave for you paid for it last year from Morph King?

Bryan

Gee, what a suprise.You sided with Jack in this debate.I would have honored our agreement that we made in the winter about a cinnamon for a mojave straight up regardless of market price.I promise you that i wont be asking 50k or 25k,if and when i produce mojaves.By the way, I think Jack is perfectly capable of articulating his position.Do you really want to get into an arguement with me? I`ve been nothing but friendly and helpful to you since the day i met you. I dont need your sarcasm.If you have something to say to me,you know my number.And you know where I am twice a month in person!!! Mark Petros

Mark,

I am NOT siding with anyone, I am taking the market side actually. How can I say my Cinnamons are now worth 15K when a year ago they were 7500, and not also go along with another aniamls potential? How is that fair? Just because I got in on the Cinnamons back when the price was right and didnt get in on the Lessers back then, that is no ones fault but my own. But because I did get on the Cinnamons when I did I now have 04 babies that are selling! It was truly a great investment! IF I would would bought a Lesser last year I would of made another great investment. I also know that you want to get every thing you can for your Mojave offspring this season, which you should! But you cant really say its okay for Mojaves to go up in price just because you have one, but not the Lessers can you?

Bryan

Also I dont want to argue with anyone, If I wanted a fight I would call my X wife, shes great for that! Not to mention I also heard from a guy not to far west from here (when he called about a Cinnamon of mine) That you ALREADY have worked out a deal with someone to pick up your Cinnamon, which doesnt bother be at all, I have seen the rest and MINE are the BEST!

Give me a call you also have my number

219 743 3337

Bryan

First of all i never said anything about raising the price on Mojaves, so your statement that I feel mojaves should go up but lessers shouldnt makes no sense at all.I actually think mojaves should stay where they are and lessers should come down but i dont think that will happen.And what I think,doesnt influence the market. Second, i dont feel that i will produce any mojaves this year so our proposed trade is a moot point.Third, i havent bought a cinnamon pastel yet.I`m considering buying one.I will not pay your 15k asking price.I NEVER promised to BUY one from you.If someone else is offering me a better price,then i`m going with them.Fourth, your cinnamons dont look any different to me than anyone elses.For you to say yours are the best,is a bit out of line.Why are yours better than Barczyk`s,Graziani`s,ralph davis,camlon,Ian G`s....ETC.Educate me Bryan, what special trait do yours carry.What am i looking for? Give me hint. Mark

noone tells the truth on prices and or at least we shold never believe anyone...due to the fact that they baloon the price to make it sould better usually.......

anyways......

the "origional" price for a platty daddy was $40,000 I was told.....

and babies list at $25,000 a couple years ago.....

now...

IF the price was increased due to the fact that they found out about leucies.......

tuff...

still a $20,000 snake......

if noone buys them....they will drop faster..

but....

people are stupid......

always....and always will be.....

and...

I really do not care what they are.....that much money could go to alot of better resources........

.........
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people???.........people are stupid.........
really???......really.........

I think I know some of those same stupid people that you are referring too. They told me that I was an idiot for paying 25k for a Spider ball in 2001, but you know what is funny! They never mention it now since I have had over a 140k return on my investment and that doesn't include the years to come.

I didn't quite understand your arguement on why the Lesser should be priced at 20k unless your "tuff" statement had some hidden meaning behind it. That really clears things up for me! As genetics become closer to being clearly identified then the price can and will be adjusted accordinly. The one fact that we do know is that the Lesser, direct decendents from the Platty, have proven to produce multiple visual morphs and that cannot be disputed.

I'm just curious what morphs you decided to invest in? Maybe you're smarter than most and can provide us stupid people with some insight on what to invest in.......REALLY!

you must make money doing nothing.......

I make enough....I buy what I want with it.....

I got a few "morphs"..

"tuff"......LOL.....funny.........must be a kid?.......I been around longer than your mom had sex>?????...

anyways....that what you needed?.....

little kids with money that live at mommy's house buy into this snake deal thing all the time..they make a [bleep]load of money...then blow it all back on snakes.....yes they have alot of money....oh yes..they buy all the best cages and electronic stuff for them too.........and they get alot of clutches...at 4 eggs per.......

and some of these BIG boys and girls ...you think they have money?....LOL.call the bank....they have more bills than money.....they move alot....build alot....buy alot...and don;t have what you think they do........

I'm Ok...you Ok?........OK........

so ...anyways.......better....???????/

have fun......

..........platty baby were sold for $20 G .....anyone spending more now is dumber than those who got them before......that's what I said......you can spend $50G all you want...I am sure ralph and Wes will take your cash ......hell....be a real man...give $100 G for it.....and call it a GREATER Investment.....you'll make it back?...right....well...unless you kill it...or the house burns down...or the electric fails and the eggs rot.....or unless you have it escape and a cat gets it?.....

whatever......I gotta wake up...

time to clean and feed.......

.......JY........a normal guy...who just don't care........

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people???.........people are stupid.........
really???......really.........

I'm 41 years old and 100% self made. No money from anyone but my hard work. In fact I have a job that I work 40 to 60 hours a week at and still manage to care for 250 snakes.

Did you feel threatened or something? Because that is what appears to happen when people even stupid ones start making no sense. And your whole point is what exactly????? That people are stupid for this and dumb for that! Come on you can come up with a better arguement than degrading every person out there that invests in these animals. Even if they invest in Colubrids and I must say you have some nice ones!

Having a blast!

anyways.....you are old........wow....not 12....whoever you are.....?????

......initial post was taken by me as a kissy assed to pay 50$G for platty baby......

initial respoce by me was that $20G was the now price......
and any more is stupid...and I also said people will be stupid..

...........the rest is wasting my time......

.....having fun yet?.....wow....trailer safe from the weather now then.........

hellll if I know......
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people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

THEN SHUT UP ALREADY!!!

First of all, who are the stupid people you are talking about?

Is it those who can barely write a legible response? Responses so cut up and gramatically fouled it leaves the readers baffled for a meaning? Or is it those who invest their money in something they enjoy and are able to gain a reward from it?

I know who the "Stupid" people are (person is probably correct)! It was a rhetorical question and does not need an answer! Save yourself!

Well, he asked for opinions, and that is Jeff's opinion. I personally think they are worth every bit of 50K but not everybody will.
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CB

"SOULFLY"

The stupid people sig was greated a while back when poeple didnt like another of JY's opinions and his signature used to say how snakes are basically stupid..then instead of discussing the thread they attacked the sig so he changed it to people all in fun and now you guys are all upset about that sig. Well hate to break it to you but people are stupid. I dont remember the movie but it quoted one person alone can be intelligent and do alot for the world..but people (as in many individuals together) we are stupid. Look at our history as a collective unit we are stupid & its a funny sig.
Now at 41 if you already own your own home(fully, no mortgage) and have no car payments then a 25-50k investment isnt stupid or dumb..otherwise ....its up for debate. and all people have an opinion in this OPEN forum.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

No one is attacking his sig. If you bothered to read the whole thread you would see where he is calling people stupid!

The debate over "good investment" can go on forever. Owning your house outright at 41 is NOT the smartest way to manage your money. It's called leveraging which allows you to maximize your cash flow and investments. Unless you have a degree in Finance or better yet a Masters in Business with a Concentration in Finance then you, including others, have little room to discuss the principals of investing.

Everyone has their own investments and because someone doesn't agree with them it doesn't mean it is a bad investment. Would you buy a pig and raise if for 6 months and call it an ivestment? Why not, it could easily make you (net profit) 5K with little work. Whether it's snakes, real estate, stocks or pigs they are all investments and the only time they are not good investments is when you LOSE money.

Rudd

Okay short and quick I read the post but here is my point

this is what JY wrote in his frist reply
people are stupid......

always....and always will be.....

and...

I really do not care what they are.....that much money could go to alot of better resources........

Now this is not much more than another version of his sig.
it is this quote that caused such an uproar.
The reason I posted and my problem was you not only disliked his arguement but only focused on the stupid part.

If you read the last part of the quote it says that he could think of much better reasons for the money. Now that is just his opinion.
Just because me and JY are stupid and have no masters in finance or blah blah whatever it does not mean we do not know where OUR priorities lie.(*sp)
I would rather make sure I would have a home for my family and not worry about house payment instead of strating up and investment business of reptiles. Thats just me..If you read my other post you would see if i had the money and no other investments I would purchase a lesser ..but as I told designer I do not wish to be the next millionaire breeder..LOL I merely enjoy snakes and will sell and trade some to fund more snakes..this is my investment.
Not to say that your priority is wrong just seen differently two opinions I have nothing wrong with that. I was merely trying to explain the sig and let you see that there is some not much reason behind JY's cynical madness.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

If you keep doing what you're doing, you'll keep getting what you're getting. While some people say that they'd rather keep their family's security and have their homes paid for, etc etc etc than pay for expensive snakes. But for every dude that says that, there's a dude that is MAKING the money from expensive snakes for their family's security, paying off their homes, etc etc.

For some people its worth it. If you're confident in your abilities, and you're on your game, investing $50,000 and making $300,000 can be done easily by breeding snakes. Where else can you get that kind of return except money-laundering or drugs? $300,000 buys a LOT of security and puts quite a nice down payment on a house in my world.

I totally agree and if my intent ,wich right now isnt but who knows what the future holds,..was to become a breeder than well I need to get out there and do it. Take chances (educated chances) Make investments and go with it.
It doesnt matter what you decide to do if you want to operste a business..snakes, bar, restauraunt etc. You have to put up an initaila investment and up front cost. If you play your cards right you make it back and start making profits. Howeber if I had to choose between spending 50k on restaraunt or snakes I say snakes because thats what i believe I could excell at...besides I cant cook.
I just right now cannot and will not choose a snake over a house or car...but i have already spent a bit a money just on my pets so who knows maybe ill get the breeding bug and make some big investments...the way things are going social security wil be laughable at best...and i could use some retirement money..LOL
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

I'm too much of a chicken-s**t to spend ANY of my own money on snakes. I bought a pair of snakes 10 years ago, and that's it. All 160 of my adult snakes has been bought with snake money. Every year, I take about $15K from what I make from snake breeding and buy more snakes. What's the risk in investment, when its just "snake money" anyways, LOL! It may take longer, but I sleep better at night, LOL!!
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n/p
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

This is the part we attacked:

IF the price was increased due to the fact that they found out about leucies.......

and...

If he thinks it is still a 20K fine. As you said it is his opinion, the problem is where he says if no one buys them they will drop faster but PEOPLE ARE STUPID and so on!

All he is saying is people are stupid. Nothing backing up why he feels it is still a 20K snake. That is the hole in his post. He said he would rather spend it on other resources. So what, it is his opinion and that is fine with everyone. When you call people stupid because he feels it is still a 20K snake without backing it up is a better example of stupidity. No one will attack your beliefs or thoughts, we may debate them, but when you come out throwing mud expect it back.

I don't mind mud....and I do expect it...that's why I am here usually........to learn what's there and throw mud into their thoughts if they are stupid or brainwashed or kissin butt...

anyways.....

........this went on too long..last time I go this far down....

........

.........don't even know who posted this or to whom?.....LOL

........

.......het for white snake..white is boring.......pieds are almost white...at least half the time.and cheaper....

?

.....het for leucy......even all the platty sibs..that were all kept or some sold?........hmmmmmmmmm

........later....done
-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

.......het for white snake..white is boring.......pieds are almost white...at least half the time.and cheaper....

But are Pieds good eaters or good breeders?

I'm well aware of the stupidity in people but where did this exactly fit in with the main topic of discussion?

If I were to have an opinion that anyone who invests in the real estate market is stupid and I say this at a realtor convention with the discussion topic being the high price of real estate, do you think that would be the brightest thing to do or better yet is it even a legitimate argueable opinion? Now who would look like the stupid one? Ignorance affords you pitty from others. That is my own personal quote for the day......No movie invovled! I like movies too but they aren't where I get my reality from.

Yes, ok.....I got it! People are stupid for buying houses, cars, going to movies, breeding snakes, having children, getting married, going to church, drinking beer....yeah I'm guilty of this one! How did I miss this connection my whole life??? Because I'm stupid!!

okay now you are being stupid..if YOY read MY post you would see I was not backing JY's opinion on you. Read my other post regarding the platty's. I was merely defending his right to say his opinion no more no less And somone mentioned his stupid people comment before he actually called somone stupid..therefore because I am stupid I figured you were just mad at the sig.
Now I did not attack you personally all though I sure can. As for the movie quote I was just try to liven things up and maybe find an easier way to say it then saying something arguementive and attacking. I have quite a few quotes now for you would you like to hear them LOL Chill out dude.
"open forum you posted and asked for opinions dont like them then dont post."
How is that for an original quote.
Now go into a realtor and tell them there 100k home is a bad investment. I dont think they would be as thin skinned and get all upset about it. Actual my uncle is in real estate and if you called him stupid hed say well so be it wanna buy a house. I agree that the platty is a good invesment once again read all my posts..i just could not justify that size of an invest without at first investing in my current financial status first that is just me than again im not out to become the next Kevin or Ralphie.
But regardless your investment is still a live animal not a home or car or condo. However farmer invest in livestock and crops all the time. They have insurance though and if things get real rough like drougts or floods they at least can get help from the govt. One of your clutchs go bad and its wait till next year. So the invetsment of a reptile especially with all the reptile law scares is definitly a more risky investment. Yes the more the risk the better the possible outcome..best of wishes to you and hope all turns out well.
p.s. as for my fascinations with movies they only cost 5-6 bucks to watch and go without reality for a little while..yours cost 25-50k. So far my fascination may be stupid but at least they are inexpensive and stupid..LOL J/K
Peace love and happiness for all.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

I can't bash or argue against JY's briliant "stupid people" theory opinion? That is exactly what I'm doing....it's all part of the process. I did read your later post and thought it to be interesting! I have just been having a very entertaining day with all this and to be honest with you, this totally chilled dude is enjoying it!

I was being stupid so that JY had some ammo because that is what he seems to relate too!

as long as your only being stupid for JY and arguing in this open forum then all is ok..LOL....
just dont get personal or take it personal and then it will stay a debate.

Stay Chill...........

Mike

Want to talk about stupid investments what about rockstars living together in one room eating only bolgna no bread and living day to day to make dreams come true only to have it all blown away by putting to much money back into investment and drugs than lose it all in a few years..LOL Now tell me people arent stupid LOL
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

Drinking beer is not stupid....LOL.
-----
CB

"SOULFLY"

Indeed!

people......

stupid...proof?......

at shows..they pay $10----to $25 for a wild little pasasitically infected ball....when they could get healthy fat eating homegrown balls for $30-$50........(others ask $100 and get it...but that's another example)......

people...go to pet shop....and pay $90 for my baby balls......when they could find me and get them for $40......(less in groups).......but they are lazy as well as dumb.....

people....will also go to same pet shops and pay like $29.95 for a little wild ball....even though it says ..."NO guarentee" with these balls..........instead of buying the captive ones......

people......get upset at stupid stuff written in a forum....for no reason at all.......just for no reason at all.......LOL.....well....guess my reason would be to prove point previously mentioned....

and now..it's time again.for someone ..to prove the same point.....

Thanx..have fun....stop by Hamburg ,Pa show...August 7th......say HI.......

HI......

JY

(grammer..got 95 to 100% on all grammer tests...1/2/and third class as senior.......you know.the classes above the other people....schools used to be segregated a little back in the 70's....smarter kids in smartter classes..and others in lesser skilled groups of classes....I don't think they do this anymore....but they should).......(I was pushed intot he level 1 groups.....also aced all Bio classes year ahead of class)..

are we still having fun?????

....90% success on balls this year....with hundeds of corns too.....

what morph were you all the first to produce(*others..not bustin earthpig)....

.
.
** question to all....name....stupidest animal on planet..?
(George W is not an acceptable answer)

.....
-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

well dumbest animal..well Id say humans only for the fact we are the only species on this planet that hasnt learned to coexist in harmony with its own ecosystem we are the biggest reason for endangered animals in this world..we destroy rainforest, trees and ecosystems all the time and for what ..pardon the irony but all for investments such as housing malls and development..LOL..however the intelligent science wise we may be we definitly lose in common sense.

LOL.....maybe not to err is human right...LOL
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

like you......

that is exactly what I meant......

don't know you or care.......

you don't know me and shouldn't care...

why are we here?......

anyways.......

( insert next stupid comment here).........

your turn........

.........sorry....you cannot read english./.......study next time.......

-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

I must be stupid myself then, I don’t see the price increase as a bad thing I see it as good thing for the market, sure I missed the boat on the Lessers when they were 25K, that’s my fault I should of bought it last year! I WILL get one this year that’s a fact, and my cat wont get into my snake room, if you let your cat in your snake you room you are the “stupid one” IF you don’t have a back up source of power you are the “stupid one” as far as the animal passing, I haven’t lost a animal from a illness and I maintain close to 200 Ball Pythons! There is something called a veterinarian to take animals that might get sick to. BUT if you give them the right environment to live in and feed them properly they will be fine. You wouldn’t go and spend 25K on a car and never check the oil in it would you?

Get real

Bryan

my room is fine...humid and if electric goes out...they'll live.......I lost a ball...female troubles...huge one.......captive and 6 years old.......big deal......I didnt feel the pain.......//.so it will happen to you too someday....and I know someone with double my experience that lost balls too........trust me.....//.......I don't like cats when they are alive....//...and for 25 K that car shouldn't burn oil.......

.......buy it....make others rich...they enjoy it......

.......
-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

Yes I am sure it will happen someday, but when I guess the thing that matters here is what kind of money someone wants to take the chance with, to produce something they want in their collection doesnt it? If all goes well there will be benifits, if not then then they will have to take their loss

Bryan

Its an awesome trait to be sure. However, I wouldn't spend 50k on it even if I had the money. There are a lot of snakes out there that are currently very cheap that will soon be in danger of being extinct or at least not available for import. I would spend my money that way. Its not like you won't have another, much cheaper, chance later on. Now may be your last chance at other snakes.

Just my opinion
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0.2 Normal Columbian
1.1 100% DH for Snow Columbians
0.2 66% DH for Snow Columbians
2.7 Kenyans (1.1 Anerys, 1.6 Possible hets)
0.3 Ball Pythons
1.0 Borneo Blood
0.0.2 Blue Tounged Skinks
0.3 Dogs (1 Full Pitbull, 1 Pit/Husky, & 1 Bernese Mt. Dog cross
0.3 Cats (1 fat, 1 old, and 1 insane)
1.0 Ferret
0.1 Very understanding wife

I have to second that opinion. I would love to see some of the money that is dumped into the ball market every year go toward a few other species. I'm not against people spending their own money on whatever they want, but I think a lot of people are maybe missing the point regarding the captive breeding of reptiles. Shouldn't we be exploring other species that are either in danger of being unavaliable to hobbyists soon or are in danger of becoming extinct altogether? I'm not a soapbox kind of person, but maybe the breeding of a few other species simply for the love of the species would be in order by the herp community.
I also have a question for ball python breeders/hobbyists. Regarding the high-dollar morphs that have balooned trememdously in price in the last few years, are most people that acquire these actually shelling out $20-$50K, or are they trading or doing "breeder loans" for them? I'm only asking because it seems so far-fetched for myself personally to spend that kind of money on a single specimen, no matter what the possible return.
Thanks for the time.

Bryan
"I'm not a preacher, I just talk too much."

That is true about all morphs, you will always have a chance to buy one later on at a cheaper price. But if you are to play the game you need to be at the forefront of the mophs. You can't play catch up, you must be competing and that means getting into a morph at its infancy.

If you are not looking to play the game and just want to keep it a hobby than wait. But if you want to be a player you can't afford to wait. You must buy as soon as you have the chance. What do you think made NERD, VPI, Ralph, BHB etc... so successful? They took the chance, spent the money and have been rewarded.

You have to stay ahead of the pack. The competition for a new designer snake or importing a new morph is huge and will only get more intense as new players enter the market. If you want to play you will have to pay.

Is the Lesser worth 50K? HELL YEAH!!! As everyone has stated, the possibilities are endless. What other snake gives you so many different directions to take? NONE! The fact no one knows all the particulars about the genetics will only keep the market value up for some time. Who is going to sell a Lesser for 25K when we still don't know all the possiblilities? NO, itelligent person would! You will always have the people undercutting the market but where's the intelligence in that? They lose money, because the value is there and they will sell. Why buy from someone who doesn't value the snake you are buying? They will only hurt your investment by continually undercutting the market. If I am buying a high end snake I am paying for it. I would rather give my money to someone who will protect the market and my investment then try to chop it down to make a quick buck. Sorry, way off topic but it would have been brought up.

Anyway the Lesser is worth all of 50K. Try and value it this way: iF you get Lessers, Platinums and Lucys from one snake; you basically get three morphs from one. What is the market value of a Lucy right now? 75K? 100K? Somewhere in there. Hets are selling for 35K! Now whats the value of a Platinum? 40K? 50K? 60K? You could easily get 40K! And then the Lesser. You buy it for 50K and you have the snake you need to produce a Lucy for 75K (we will take the low end) a Platty for 40K and more Lessers?

How do you not see the value in this snake? It's way too obvious!! It may even be undervalued at 50K!!

You watch, in a few years all of the people who are saying there is no way it is worth 50K are going to be kicking themselves because they will be so far behind in the project! Don't miss the train!

Rudd

.
-----
CB

"SOULFLY"

..................C'mon man...........
-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

If I had the $$ I would be stupid....LOL...I need some live rodents today, I'll try to give you a call.
-----
CB

"SOULFLY"

Jack,

I’ve sat and wondered about all of the price increases here myself lately, there has been a few of them very recently for example, Lessers, Mojave’s Cinnamon’s etc.. With the Lessors basically seeing the largest increase in price. But here is what I am thinking that is going on. I think there are a lot of people out there that are kicking themselves in the a$$ for not getting in on certain projects back when the project was “cheap” A year ago basically to date, you were able to buy a Mojave or a Cinnamon for $7500 now the price tag is at 15K, because of what the potential of the animal can and will produce. The Lessers are just following the price increase of these animals. I invested some serious money last year in Ball Pythons as you and a lot of other people know very well and just a few years ago I thought 1K was to much for snake, well about two years later I was spending 20K for animals go figure. Last year I believe the prices were some where around 25 to 35K for a Lesser, NOW that we know what they will produce I think the price SHOULD go up! And remember this, this is coming from a guy that dosent have a Lesser and is wanting one! YES I WILL pay 50K for a Lesser this year and the animal will be worth EVERY red cent that I put out for it! There are a lot of people out there that are going to complain and [bleep] about the price just like they are doing about the other Morphs that have went up in prices, my suggestion to them is to sit back and keep their money stuffed under their pillow or whatever they do with it, and I will reproduce the Lessers in the near future!

Bryan

1) My relationship with my husband Dave of 14 years and our two children.
2) $125 for a mammogram that detected my breast cancer and saved my life.

Tracy

glad you are well......

glad Dave is too ...(supose he is)......

smartest man I ever met.......

(the only man / breeder I actually look up to yet and won't ever argue with.......)

say hi.....

and Hi to you too Tracey..........

...........pet the kids for me while you're at it........

-----
people are stupid....are you a people?.....
thought so.......
having fun yet?......

We needed the reality check and what really is important in life! I didn't intend for this to be a mother name calling school yard fight but some people like to bring it down to that level.

I can understand the price increase on the Lesser...I will not pay it.

I can understand the price increase on the Cinamon...I really really want one...but I will not pay it.

Whats with the price on the Mojave? What has it been proven to make? No super? no white snake?

Michael Enriquez

As for the Mojave, I think there might be a Mojave x Mojave breeding that will hopefully reveal a super and or a white snake later this year. I believe it will probably be something similar to an ivory myself.
I also think Morph King will more than likely hit on a white snake or something big with their Lesser x Mojave eggs due to hatch in 11 days.

Het for Lucys range from $75k to $100k a pair

Platty Daddy X Lesser = blue eyed lucy, platty daddies and lessers

Lesser X Normal Sib = lessers and plattie daddies

There is still much to figure out with the "Platty"............

No breeder yet IMO has proved anything with their lucy lines, including me............if you want to play, it will cost you $50k per Lesser........the big dollar mutations are for the "very few" to have fun with......there are high dollar players in every market..........why should ball pythons be excluded.....?......most are not looking at the fact that many of the "high dollar players" DO HAVE 50 to 100k to gamble with..........if the "general public" only knew the millions being made..........

And that is the problem.........the MILLIONS!!!!

Rock On!!

Congrats on the boas man! Now get that journal updated, LOL!! Its been OVER a WEEK!

If any BP morph is worth the high market value asked for it ...well the Platty is it. I mean pastels can be mixed for some nice morphs and so can spiders but not one single morph has had more potential than the platty. If I had the money and no prior investment..IE house and car...I would jump all over this..fact is that finding so many lucies from the platty should raise the price on it.
I hate to use lobster again but if they found out that lobster had an enzyme that worked better than viagra than the market price of lobster would skyrocket.That is why there is a Market price you never know when it will change. High or low.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

So get in or get out...Buy what you can afford...Just like others have said, the ball market is like any other market and people get what others are willing to pay...People think it's crazy that people spend $20k on a single snake to hopefully make money on but that's not crazy...it's smart...If you can afford it u should always buy the more expensive stuff cuz a) it holds it value longer, or b)it will turn more profit in the long run....come to south Florida and buy a house...for a 1800 sq. ft. house in a gated communtiy you'll pay $350k , which people think is crazy but why...That house will turn you more profit in the long run...Say realestate goes up 11% this yr. (which it did in Florida) that house just made you $38,500...Now say that house was a pastel so you turned a lil' profit..small investment small profit..Now say someone buys a $2.7mill home and same applied as above (11% increase in one yr.)...now that house just made you $297k.... a lil' bit more of a profit wouldn't you say.. it made you about 8 times the return compared to the first one...This house is a lesser...if something will make u more cash down the road than why is it stupid to invest in it??? It's stupid not too...If you don't have the money then don't do it, but for the people that do have it should go for it...Spend $50k on a lesser now and you'll make that back and then some on your first breeding with it...How's that dumb?? I can't afford one now and won't be able to for sometime...I got priorities to pay for first (college, home, etc.)...So I play with what I can afford and start small..Everyone has to start somewhere...But it always has been and always will be basic economics that it takes money to make money....Don't drink wine if you only have a beer budget!!
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Come check out our brand new site!!! www.bustyballpythons.com

Damn, I aint movin to S. Florida, and stick with beer people...Wine sux!!...LOL.
-----
CB

"SOULFLY"

yeah beer people are better socializers anyways..not as stuck up LOL J/K..Hey im working up to a imported beer budget so look out
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

I actually would really love to move to florida..but like bachman said you gotta love that beer budget...funny with beer money saved i could probably buy some nice snakes ..but than again where would my sanity be..LOL
Right now im on a beer budget and am thankful for the snakes I have. What i meant by the house and car thing is I already have those loans and to get 50k were talking about another loan and well thats not in the cards right now.
I do have a backup plan though that hopefully pans out for me..I still wont be able to aford a platty but maybe some nice snakes none the less. my plan start small have fun breed see if I m any good at this thing and then go from there..hopefully on an imported beer budget...LOL
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

And I think your mixing me up with someone else I never said ANYONE was dumb or stupid especially for purchasing snakes.Snakes are one of the best hidden investments out there..i say hidden because most people I talk to are like what there are snakes out there worth that much.no wher else can you turn such a great profit in a matter of 3 years and with little effort.
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

Naw I wasn't referring to you...I was referring to another or two that posted in this thread, but it was so damn long that I couldn't find where I read it at so I just posted my thoughts under that last link which was yours...Sorry bro, not directed towards you..And you all are funny..The wine on a beer budget thing was just a figure of speech....LOL...Beer people are more socializable...hahah....To get off topic they are though in a more laxed way...But I just said that statement to make a pt. that people shouldn't buy what they can't afford...Yea peeps can take out loans and put it on credit cards but u know what...Banks are gonna want their money someday, right? I am sure u guys are with me when I say I hate people that bicker cuz some thing is too expensive and should be less....Hey if you don't want to pay for designer snakes or clothes or anything for that matter than don't...No one is forcing you too, just keep your thoughts to yourself....One man's trash is another man's treasure, and one man's treasure is another man's trash.....Peace
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Come check out our brand new site!!! www.bustyballpythons.com

no hard feelings I figured that is what happened which is why I posted two replies.
I too agree with the dont like the price dont buy theory..
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0.1 Leos
1.1 Corn snakes (1 Lav & 1 Ghost)
0.1 Banan California King
0.0.1 Childrens python
1.1 Brazilian Rainbow boa
1.0 Rat (as pet not food)
1.2 Ball pythons (1pastel 2 normals)
"whats with you and all those dang reptiles?"

THE TOP TEN LIST OF REASONS TO INVEST IN LESSER PLATTYS:

1. Your mattress just wont hold $50,000 of drug money

2. You just sold your 1970's used vet collection from your front yard....all 50 of them.

3. You really dont need to upgrade to a double wide this year.

4. You want Ralph to like you....a lot.

5. You want to grow up to be just as mean as Kevin at NERD.

6. You want to prove to your parents that snake breeding really is profitable.

7. Crack dealing while profitable puts you in jail.......snake breeding just keeps you broke forever.

8. You just like to say "Platty"

9. Someday maybe you can have your own forum.....and groupies!

10. You have no other way of getting chics.....

*****If anyone gets offended by this.....lighten up Francis!

Brian Potter
NARBC
Chicago Reptile House

Answer that question