Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Figured instead of draging all this on and on to just get off my duff and take a pic of one of these guys at a year old.

Let all of you decide if there is any potential for them. First a pic of one of the breeders that has been posted so many times before. With a follow up of the only one currently here that was not about to opaque.

darn no pic.......I should preview as well since I noticed "not about to opaque" should read "not about to shed". I guess we all know that adult pic anyway.

Here is the best I can do with my very old HP camera we still use here. Seems this yearling appears a bit washed out in the pic showing very little contrast as it appears at least to me in the flesh. This one is definitely not as nice as the adult male depicted but being only a yearling I think it looks pretty good in it's own right.

Anyway, instead of all this constant debating and bickering I'll let all of you come to your own conclusions as to the potential these guys have. I think the potential exists. Some may not..

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

heres the adult for comparison, Ron

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The Crawl Space

dang that was the wrong pic, lol lets try it again

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The Crawl Space

Rich Hebron's yearling seems to be making great progress towards the adults. Those are all great looking gophersnakes you guys are making available. I hate having to make those "need to make room" decisions on what snakes might need to go.

Terry Parks

We only have swamp water here which could be muddying them up. You guys in CA need to ship me some water directly from some of those locales I have herps from. Maybe that will help. (-:

Best Regards, Rich Hebron

How are Pituophis melanoleucus deserticola being found so far out of there range? When Yorba Linda is home to Pituophis melanoleucus annectens.
Just wondering.
Thanks
High Desert Herper

It is my undderstanding the parents were not collected in Yorba Linda, but rather easterly where there would be Pituophis catenifer deserticola. It would seem to me that using Yorba Linda is similar to the hypo Stillwater bullsnake name. The founding breeders to those were rescued one year during the Stillwater Rattlesnake Roundup. Who knows how many miles from Stillwater they could have been collected. In the case of the Stillwater bullsnake hypos, using Stillwater identifies that hypo gene and a reasonable area they came from. I followed that basis through when these were being called Yorba Linda gophersnakes. It's been awhile since I've seen gophersnakes called melanoleucus.

Terry Parks

Terry, thanks for the info. Probably have been referring all along to where the breeder resides and not the area in which he is collecting. I believe you once mentioned to me there was additional correspondence with the original collector of the adults. Could you e-mail me any additional info. you acquired dealing with location. I am very unfamiliar with that area, as I am with most areas within CA since we reside in Florida.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

Thanks for the reply guys. I kinda had a feeling it was going to be something like that and I've been looking at those pics for a while now scratching my head so I figured if I really wanted to know, why not just ask.
Happy Herping

with bringing up "deserticola". Were you basing this on the pics included within this thread or from a previous post?

Thanks, Rich Hebron

No, just having grown up in that area and collecting a lot of Gopher Snakes as a kid, I recognized that the snake labeled "Yorba Linda" was not p.c.annectens that would normally be found there. I have resided in the desert for quite some time now and have quite a large collection of deserticola as well as annectens. Here's a pic of my 5.5' female deserticola. She's a very pretty animal.
High Desert Herper

BTW, she most certainly is a nice snake you included a pic of..

Why I asked the question is when these first became available almost everyone including myself after seeing them/or pics of them attached the label of Great Basin. Recently though, page or two back in this forum another suggested the possibilty of some intergradation in the area. This prompted others to see maybe other influences in these gophers as well. This has recently led some to go so far as to criticize the continued breeding or marketing of these herps as was done in the previous post on these below.

Me, being that I do not see enough of these at all outside of shows and pics (reside in FL) have basically left it up to others (hopefully with more experience) to discuss what they might be with some level of certainty in their conclusion.

I would be interested in hearing or reading any more thoughts you may have concerning these gophersnakes as you seem to be in a much better area/situation then I to give this topic a more serious thought.

Thanks, Rich Hebron

I believe that the san bernadino and san gabriel mts.are the cut off for thye deserticola.Thats the two ranges that break the desert from the coast,
Anyways,This guy is in the blue but you can see he isn't typical of deserticola,He was produced from a w/c gravid 11 miles west of hesperia,The whole clutch looked like this.

Anyways,I will try and post a few more pics to give you a idea of locle deserticola.

I think I remeber talking with bruce atherton about his yarba lindas and he yold me they were collected there and not just bnamed that casue he lives there?

later shannon

12 miles north east of bishop,ca.

shannon

.

Shannon, very nice. Is this a WC individual?

Rich

Yes,
She was collected last year about this time up in central oregon close to washington.
I have had her since september and she is doing great.
She will be breedable next year and I have selected a nice male with reduced pattern on his sides to outcross her to.
I hope that the first ones produced will be nicer with higher white sides?I think that usually happens with the first whitesided snakes found.

Later shannon

Is she the female you made that drive to see from a show you were at? I loved that story and congrats on having her to work with.

Terry Parks

>>Yes,
>>She was collected last year about this time up in central oregon close to washington.
>>I have had her since september and she is doing great.
>>She will be breedable next year and I have selected a nice male with reduced pattern on his sides to outcross her to.
>>I hope that the first ones produced will be nicer with higher white sides?I think that usually happens with the first whitesided snakes found.
>>
>>Later shannon

Yep,thats the one,

shannon

Sharp looking snake.

Rich Hebron

Thanks for joining in and with posting the pics. Seems these guys can be quite variable in appearance across their range.

Rich Hebron

Hey Shannon
Wow what awesome looking snake . Even in the blue you tell it super nice , its colors and bold markings .

Thanks for the sonoran pics you send me too , the dark is pretty cool

jason

Just thought I'd share. This deserticola is from the Ord Mountain area of San Bernardino County

is from The same area but looks a little different.

Thanks for posting pics of some very nice snakes. I've always favored catenifers and deserticola. I know you didn't post any catenifer pics and I was elluding to them. I was just stating I favor catenifers and deserticolas. Here's a catenifer representative of the Caliente area. Scott Lupien and several others have posted some nice pics of catenifers from the Bay area.

Terry Parks

I will post some stuff as well . Great Basin gophers are high variable , they should just change there Variable Gophers . I live in Northern Utah and they are just as variable in UT as well , black , white , yellow, orange ,tan ,brown and many pattern too .
here a pic from of northern UT , she black lookinging

Jason

from near the salt flats

Jason

Richfield area

I want one!! What else can I say?

Terry Parks

Hey Terry
Will work on that . There kind of dull for albinos .

jason

I guess you haven't worked with them enough yet to brighten them up. It's not fair to compare them to your San Diego albinos.

Terry Parks

d

female

male

Now that is different..

Pretty snake Jason.

Terry Parks

I really like the busy pattern on this locality . Its got to be the hardest place hunt because elevation factors . We have seen Punkin Orange with sold black blotches road kills with pattern like the one posted here but no live ones yet .
this one pic has turn more orange since this pic

jason

2

h

and abberent

het hypo

Outstanding, what area did this one come out of? I am about to hang on to these Yorba Lindas after seeing this snake as well as the albino. Might become future additions to a Great Basin Project I may NOW start...

Rich Hebron

Hi Rich
If I was you I would hold on to those Yorba Lindas. I think the Great Basin Market will be on the up and up . I would buy them from you but right now where I live in UT and the Great basin are native , I have to do legaly . I have to get a COR Permit to sell and breed them . Hopfully they will allow me to get one next year ?

That Hypo was captive born by Shannon . Its from the Bishop area and is codominate .

Jason

Greetings Jason, always good to hear that any market will possibly have an upswing but actually our dispersing of all these specific locale herps to others was because it was HARD getting some of the stock I wanted to work with. Getting so hard I was starting to believe there just were not many lines of particular herps kept in captivaty of these types to begin with.

I like working with larger diverse groups of these specific locales but in the end was only coming across one or two pairs of things, some related. I was given more grief typically by others with my searching, why though I never understood.

Now, on the other hand, we always worked with many morphs of several types of colubrids to boot. I enjoy the diversity of accessible stock as well as the surprises in store during egg hatching time (example being Thayeri) while working with these. Dare I say they also move easier which enables me to continue with our hobby in getting better enclosures, stock and what have you.

Finally decided with our limited space to make the call on whether I continue trying to form diverse future breeding stock of specific locale herps I liked from years gone by or try to stay somewhat cutting edge focusing on new morph projects. Morphs won out hence all my ads. listing various specific locale herps now available. Truely though if I had more space and time I would not sell anything I bought previously and would continue with both sides of my interests.

What I like here though is I see several morph projects I could incorporate these YL into which may now keep these guys right at home.

Take care, Rich Hebron

Central UT

Great pic shot showing the classic dorsal neck pattern of deserticolas.

Terry Parks

we have "variable kingsnakes". Variable Gophersnakes does fit desertciolas variability. I wondered when you were going to post some pics of your deserticolas. I was about to post for people to visit your website. Actually, everybody who hasn't visited Jason's website, "Envy Reptiles" listed on the Dealers list on this website and are interested in the pics that have been posted here, should vist it. I highly recommend it. Be careful, you just might have to get something you see and I won't be held responsible. LOL.

Terry Parks

>>I will post some stuff as well . Great Basin gophers are high variable , they should just change there Variable Gophers . I live in Northern Utah and they are just as variable in UT as well , black , white , yellow, orange ,tan ,brown and many pattern too .
>>here a pic from of northern UT , she black lookinging
>>
>>Jason
>>

hahhaha, I tried variable once with these and was attacked. They said they appear varaiable at times because those specific ones are intergrades and I do not have enough experience to tell the difference.

Rich

It's funny how things can change. How many varied pics have been posted on this thread alone. Maybe I will get attacked too.

Terry Parks

>>hahhaha, I tried variable once with these and was attacked. They said they appear varaiable at times because those specific ones are intergrades and I do not have enough experience to tell the difference.
>>
>>Rich

I appreciate the kind words

I accually took off my Great Basin Pics because I was getting so much interest in them and I was not breeding or selling any this year . Hopfully next year I will get my COR permit so I can breed and sell captive born Great basins.

Thanks again

Jason

I looked at your website yesterday. There are still the sonorans and San Diegos on it. Definitely worth looking at to compare to the pics on this thread where someone sees sonoran or San Diego influence and/or integration in the Great Basin. My wife gets a little nervous when I look at your site. LOL. I don't really know why. It was left to Del the last several years to handle the pits while I focused on the rat snakes. My wife knows I am looking again at the pits as I miss them a lot.

Terry Parks

Thanks Jason for posting pics of some very nice snakes and adding to this discussion. Now I have to tell my wife I need to get a couple more snakes. LOL.

Terry Parks

Haha we all need acouple more snakes .

I know thread was for So Cal Great Basin Gophers but I thought great time disccuss GB gophers in general , since its not offen that we do .

Jason

is from Apple Valley, CA. When I first caught her a few years ago, she had no black whatsoever but is darkening up very nicely.

Thats a good looking snake.....

Rich Hebron

n/p

n/p

This is an annectens I caught just North-East of the Yorba Linda area at the county line while visiting family. Very pretty browns that the camera just couldn't pick up well.

HighDesertHerper, JMO but I think that snake is a perfect example of an "intergrade." Notice the more "squared" blotches with less upper side markings, instead of typical "bar like" or smaller dorsal blotches, and a slightly less blotch count than a "pure" annectens. Also the small horizontal "bars" along the lateral part of the neck is more of a deserticola trait. This is just my observation, but that's also a fine looking snake.

Yorba Linda sits in a location where moving a direction outside of the area there may be integration and/or places where there was the ability for gene flow at some point in time. Moving easterly or north easterly is moving towards deserticola. Outside of being right in the middle of their range, gophersnakes can sometimes show physical traits of other subspecies. Several Field Guides and Spec sheets indicate that specific locale data is sometimes necessary for identification. The Yorba Linda Gophersnakes show influence to me rather than being in an overlap or integration zone.

Terry Parks

>>HighDesertHerper, JMO but I think that snake is a perfect example of an "intergrade." Notice the more "squared" blotches with less upper side markings, instead of typical "bar like" or smaller dorsal blotches, and a slightly less blotch count than a "pure" annectens. Also the small horizontal "bars" along the lateral part of the neck is more of a deserticola trait. This is just my observation, but that's also a fine looking snake.

Terry, I think we're talking the same thing, more or less. If the snakes in question have "influence" from another subspeice, than it stands to reason there is/was a range overlap....(ie: intergrade)....LOL. Actually, we use your term quite frequently for the Gophers along Scissors Crossing, to "judge" the amount of each sub that seems to show in any particular snake. You would be hard pressed to find any "pure" example of either along that entire area. Your also correct that Pit ranges/examples seem to overlap (and present as such) more often than most other U.S. species. If we had an accurate enlarged range map available, we could tell with better assurance if North East Orange County falls within that category. It looks like it very well could be in the 3 way overlap of annectens, deserticola and affinis. Isn't it all fun though...or is it just our craziness to try and figure it out! One thing I am positive about, the snakes in question don't care a thing about any of this. They're just doing what comes
natural to them.

Eimon

IMHO anyway. I let the taxonomists figure it out. Yes, we seem to be talking the same thing. I tend to use "influence" more often I guess. If there's "influence" then there was overlap or integration like you say. There are instances in other species where there has been evolved integration where those have attained subspecies status, Oops,I forgot that's what the taxonomists are supposed to figure out. LOL. In any case, there are truly some nice looking snakes in California. I live in Bakersfield, CA.

Tery Parks

>>Terry, I think we're talking the same thing, more or less. If the snakes in question have "influence" from another subspeice, than it stands to reason there is/was a range overlap....(ie: intergrade)....LOL. Actually, we use your term quite frequently for the Gophers along Scissors Crossing, to "judge" the amount of each sub that seems to show in any particular snake. You would be hard pressed to find any "pure" example of either along that entire area. Your also correct that Pit ranges/examples seem to overlap (and present as such) more often than most other U.S. species. If we had an accurate enlarged range map available, we could tell with better assurance if North East Orange County falls within that category. It looks like it very well could be in the 3 way overlap of annectens, deserticola and affinis. Isn't it all fun though...or is it just our craziness to try and figure it out! One thing I am positive about, the snakes in question don't care a thing about any of this. They're just doing what comes
>>natural to them.
>>
>>Eimon

Yeah I would total say thats annectan . I have hunted So Cal but I have work with a lot of annectans . Great Stuff keep it coming .

jason

is a 5 footer caught in the same area just 500' from the San Bernardino County Line.

check to see if any new posts.

Great pic..

Rich

Very Nice! Its got that nice burnt orange color in the tail and lower body which is pretty common in annectans but not so in deserticola and affinis.

take care

jason

In contrast to high desert deserticola, here's a Lancaster, CA
P.c. deserticola. This male was Del's founding breeder for his Lancaster Great Basins. Del had discussed the Yorba Linda gophersnakes with Bruce a few times. When he got a pair of offspring, Del called me to come over and see them. They looked deserticola. Del discussed the Yorba Lindas with Bruce and if I remember correctly, the area that came up lent itself to these being deserticola with the possibility of influence from annectins and/or affinis. There are several low points in the surrounding hills that could have allowed gene flow. The first time I remember seeing an ad for these, they were listed something like yellow San Diego gophers. I'm going from memory and that may not be an exact quote on them, but San Diego was in the ad somewhere. I think San Diego was used because the breeder lives in or around Yorba Linda. I really think that "Yorba Linda Gophersnake" could be used as "Stillwater Hypo Bullsnake" is used in this case. The range of P.c. deserticola covers both high and low elevations. It also is in integration zones with catenifer, annectins, and affinis. Gophersnakes integrade so readily there is a lot of influence that can be seen in areas that come in contact or very close to the respective ranges. Integration seems to be seen when they are young. Influence seems to manifest itself as the snake develops towards adult. Just my views and opinions. It is so important when discussing catenifer, annectins, deserticola, and affinis that specific locale data is known as this may be the only basis for determining the true subspecies.

Terry Parks

That looks alot like one I caught on Ave."J" just last week. Very pretty snake.

Del has the locale data, but the one I posted came from either Ave. "K" or "L". These deserticola tend to have a lighter ground color with some red overtones in the gound color especially towards and in the tail area. Here's a yearling pair Del produced under his permit. They are beginning to develop the red overtones in the groundcolor near and around the tail.

Terry Parks

on our lettered avenues are Hookers....

Nice pic exchange guys.

Several of the Lettered Avenues don't have any buildings and/or residences on them. The Avenue is paved, but you go and there's a lot of dirt roads where there was going to be developing. Great for herping, but not for most anything else I guess. LOL.

Terry Parks

Not here, they can put up a subdivision overnite but will take them 2-3 years to finish the road for buyers to get there.

Rich Hebron

I live in Lancaster, amazing how familiar that snake looks...

Hey Terry
Thats some good info . The more pics I see of these Yorba Linda things , the Great Basin side looks more prominate .I once said maybe Sonoran influnce but I would say they look more deserticola with some annectan influnce That pic you posted looks Deserticola up top but the bottom end looks Annectan because the blotching and the burn orange. I have seen that burn orange look in annectans lower body alot but not in deserticola .

Its fun and entertaining and at the same time a little confusing . Nice looking animals though .

jason

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[center]Dillon Road[/center]

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[center]Pioneertown[/center]

Nice pics. The snake's color (or lack of) in the first pic almost seems to show it is Anerythristic or Axanthic.

Terry Parks

these GBs appear across their range. It's becoming clear to me only seasoned collectors familiar with all these different areas have a chance at putting together what makes up any of these gophers.

Outstanding assortment of pics you have all posted. Clear message of what this hobby means personally to each of you with the thought you have all expressed concerning this topic.

In my opinion this is how all specific locale discussions should be dealt with. Sharing of information without all the attacks and attitudes that distract from such threads. All they usually do is shut down posts before they get anywhere. One of you stated in a previous post the fun in all this. I can not recall who now as so much was posted but I agree as this hobby can be and has been just that.

Rich Hebron

What a great looking snake, looks almost albino in the mid body.

thanks for sharing pic

jason

What would each of you consider these Yorba Lindas to be? I have a few e-mails with individual opinions but personally believe you guys may have more insight after you actually read what other's views might be.

Myself, at first considered these Great Basin but knew I had not seen enough of these to know for sure. Now, after seeing so many pics and reading the posts, I will consider them to be Great basin (AKA The Variable Gophersnake) but will continue to refer to them as Yorba Lindas, hahaha.

Rich Hebron

Rich -
I've stated in a couple posts that "Yorba Linda Gophersnake" works for me as "Stillwater Hypo Bullsnake" works for that bloodline. As was stated before; do we do this for the fun of it or the craziness to figure it out. It's not right to let the craziness become so serious. Again it was stated; the snakes don't care, they are just doing what is natural. I will add they have been doing it for millions of years. There are taxonomists who have devoted their lives to doing this; I leave it to them to figure it out.

Maybe not the type answer you were looking for, but it's my opinion and views on it.

Terry Parks

>>What would each of you consider these Yorba Lindas to be? I have a few e-mails with individual opinions but personally believe you guys may have more insight after you actually read what other's views might be.
>>
>>Myself, at first considered these Great Basin but knew I had not seen enough of these to know for sure. Now, after seeing so many pics and reading the posts, I will consider them to be Great basin (AKA The Variable Gophersnake) but will continue to refer to them as Yorba Lindas, hahaha.
>>
>>Rich Hebron

Actually, I was not looking for any particular type of answer but everyones view in one spot. Really am not aware if everyone else though was aware of your view as it appears we have many others that are now posting in this thread. As well as others e-mailing me what they think.

Now in regards to you previously posting your view in this thread, dude, it maybe hard to find LOL....

Thanks for sharing.

Rich Hebron

In rereading my post, I may have over worded it. You are correct it's probably hard to find any of the previously stated posts. There are quite a few posts on this thread. LOL. It has been a fun thread.

Terry Parks

>>Actually, I was not looking for any particular type of answer but everyones view in one spot. Really am not aware if everyone else though was aware of your view as it appears we have many others that are now posting in this thread. As well as others e-mailing me what they think.
>>
>>Now in regards to you previously posting your view in this thread, dude, it maybe hard to find LOL....
>>
>>Thanks for sharing.
>>
>>Rich Hebron

I agree 100% . To me this is a hobby and I do it because I love it , it's fun . I'm not a expert in reptiles or genetics . It buggs me when people get all anal about genetics , on the hobbyist forums .

Rich I dont know So Cal very well but I would say after seeing more pics they look Great basin although I see some thing that reminds me of annectans in them . Like some of the blotching and the burn orange colors in the tails .
I would just keep calling them Yorba Linda's .

jason

I believed it was just something in the water around Yorba Linda. All I wanted was clarification of the specifics. It was my hope to start having someone in California ship me bottles of it from the correct source. Instead, now ,I have to weed thru all these darn photos, geeze.........

We have water droughts and shortages in California Rich. LOL. Water can cost more than the snakes. It may be cheaper in the long run to ship the snake to California for a drink. LOL.

Terry Parks

>>I believed it was just something in the water around Yorba Linda. All I wanted was clarification of the specifics. It was my hope to start having someone in California ship me bottles of it from the correct source. Instead, now ,I have to weed thru all these darn photos, geeze.........

we are actually coming out of a long dry spell in North Florida. Has been 7-8 years of wildfires. Now though the daily deluge of water put down on us is almost making up for all those dry years in one season. Unfortunately though the DOR is now the highest I have seen in years since all this water has spurred much activity.

To bad you guys are not out of the dry stage yet. Look at the possibly good side to this though. Many believe California will one day become an Island. This will reduce water demand, as well as create all new water front property.

On a serious note, I did enjoy this thread and appreciated all the contributions made. Prior to these forums I basically only had the oppourtunity to see many gophersnakes at either shows (typically hatchlings), thru the occasional pic associated with a mag. article, book or in a for sale ad. If not for you guys being delegient in keeping photos and records online of the various locales and types associated with them, I would personally be lost. Since their development and for the most part afterwards, I typically went to one of your sites to get a better idea of what appearances were associated with what gophersnake. Some have become great resources. This became a great GB thread.

Best regards, Rich Hebron