Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I received this gopher that was sold as SD, het for albino (from what I've heard is a reputable breeder) but it looks so drastically different from my other SD gopher. In your expert opinions, is this a SD?

Also, I have 3 SD gophers and two, from a different breeder, are perfectly amiable but this new one hisses, strikes and musks when ever I try to hold it. What a big difference. I'm had it for a few months, should I leave it alone or try and continue working with it? After I hold it for a while it does calm down to a fashion but is not nearly as tractable as the other two. They haven't hiss once at me. Can I expect this snake to calm down as it matures?

Ken

But from all the pictures I've been gazing at now that I'm addicted to Pits.... it sorta looks like a Pacific to me. How'd I do ya all? Did I get it right?

MissHisssss

it'll calm down eventually, it's just a little spooked probably. good luck w/ it.

Looks like a Pacific to me too. Although there are variations within both subspecies they each have distinct colors and patterns. The San Diego gophers have smaller more defined black saddles on a yellow/gold/orange background that get darker towards the neck and tail. The Pacific gophers have larger less defined reddish brown saddles on an orange/brown background from neck to tail. Either the breeder was mistaken or is not as reputable as you think. It could also be wild caught, which may explain its behavior. You should keep working with him until he gets more comfortable with you. Most of them do get better, but in some cases you just can’t alter their predetermined genetic behavior. Good luck with him.

Thanks for all the input, I appreciate it. Still, it's confusing to me, and maybe this pit group of snakes is simply that way

The breeder doesn't even list Pacifics on his site so it's weird this one would be a Pacific, although I agree it sure looks like one.

Then, I started scrolling down and saw Jason Nelson's post on 7/3 "Striped SD Body Pic" and thought it looks a lot like mine, further confusing this for me

I also appreciate your thoughts on calming down. I will continue to work with her and I'm hoping she'll realize I'm not going to eat her

You're welcome. It can get confusing from time to time. Let the breeder know about this, maybe he made a mistake and will correct it. The striped Pacific gophers do resemble the blotched ones because most have some kind of striping going on. In my experience it doesn't take too long for them to learn you are their food source and not a predator. I've also learned they’ll calm down faster if you let them explore their surroundings as you handle them. They start to realize it's not too bad to get picked up and get some exercise outside the cage. Good luck.

I can see the resemblence to striped SD in that post you mentioned, and like I said, I'm no expert... so, your guess is as good as mine. I agree with NZ that you should take this matter to the breeder. Posting the results will help me learn.

Thanks.
MissHisssss

Are your other San Diego's the striped phase? It seems to get a little confusing with the striped phase gophersnakes. They can go either way at times. It almost seems the opposite when you look at striped phase San Diegos and Pacifics. Pacifics have better defined blothces in its normal phase when compared to San Diegos. Yet, it almost seems the opposite in their striped phase. Striped phase San Diegos have more defined dorsal blotches than the Pacifics. The Pacific striped I've seen have defined dorsal stripes which takes out most of the blotches. The snake in the pic looks Pacific if it wasn't the striped phase, but appears San Diego to me as a striped gopher.

Keep working with it and it should calm down more. Two things generally happen. The snake calms down, but you become used to working with it. You may do something a little different than you do when handling the other snakes. It might be not reaching in when you first open the enclosure. It might be reaching down from behind. You will probably make some adjustment or adjustments that seem to work for the snake that doesn't stress it. Some snakes never calm down and are nippy and flighty all the time.

Terry Parks

I realize that this wasn't my thread, but your answer sure helped further my education in Pits.

Thanks....
MissHisssss

It can go either way, but it looks San Diego to me. Go to Envy Reptiles website. Jason has a lot of pics on his website. Go to the Dealers section on this website. There is a link to Envy Reptiles. Browse the pics of striped San Diegos and Pacifics and see what you think.

Terry Parks

I'm inclined to agree. Darn if sometimes I don't get confused though. I've seen pic's that look just like bulls but they are called Sonorans, and vice versa, to name just two. Isn't there some little difference that will tell me which is which. I've been told that sonorans have a mask that goes across their face, including the eyes, and that the bulls don't have this, and then I come across a picture of one with a mask that is called a bull. It's all very confusing to me... but I'm still very new so please bear with me. Shoot, I'm hogging this thread. Sorry.

MissHisssss

We all get confused (not the best word to use). Don't get frustrated or anything if you do. The first little difference that helps in identification of any snake is specific locale data. It can help when you look at the snake in seeing which subspecies and/or if it is an integrade. The thing with gophersnakes is that they breed with each other so readily and have been doing it when they overlap or cross since the beginning of their evolution. Several Field Guides and spec sheets will say that sometimes specific loale is the only basis for identification. Pacific gophersnakes are the most variable of the gophers. Sonoran gophers and bullsankes have readily cross bred in areas they come in contact with each other or overlap. Now remember I said the pic that began this post appears to be San Diego to me. If we knew locale data traced back to the original w/c parents it would be easier to ID the snake.

When people post pics of snakes that are identified you will see more things that will make the snake appear to be this or that. Some of the guys on here have looked at 100's of gophersnake and see the subtle differences that you want to see. I don't see sonoran as much as most. I hardly see it at all. I keep trying to look at the pics of sonorans when they are posted and hopefully physical traits will begin to be seen.

Take what everyone posts and see if you can see what they are describing and then begin building from there.

Good luck,
Terry Parks

>>I'm inclined to agree. Darn if sometimes I don't get confused though. I've seen pic's that look just like bulls but they are called Sonorans, and vice versa, to name just two. Isn't there some little difference that will tell me which is which. I've been told that sonorans have a mask that goes across their face, including the eyes, and that the bulls don't have this, and then I come across a picture of one with a mask that is called a bull. It's all very confusing to me... but I'm still very new so please bear with me. Shoot, I'm hogging this thread. Sorry.
>>
>>MissHisssss

Too bad pedigrees for snakes aren't more popular. It sure would help matters. I was wondering if you could check out the Snake that I found trying to get into my house. It is on page two intitled "are girls allowed" June 30 and july 1st. I didn't have a very good camera so you can't see the mask very well but it's there. Does he look pure sonoran or is he an intergrade or what? I live in Dona Ana county NM, with Otero county about a block away, and El Paso TX a few miles south. I live on the east side of the Franklin mountains... if that helps. Chaparral is not always on the map.

So are you saying that you can have two snakes that have the same markings and they will have different names depending on which locales they come from? Sorry bout all these questions. I know... it's PITiful.

MissHisssss

Looks like a nice sonoran gopher to me. It's hard to see any sayi integration being wrapped around the hand in the pic.

As one subspecies of gophersnake approaches or comes in contact with the range of another subspeciecies of gophersnake, they can begin looking similar to each other. They can begin looking similar because they are integratdes or they can look similar because they are now living in the same habitat and environment. Colors and some markings are that way because of habitat, elevations, environmental, and things like that. Knowing specific locale may help to identify which subspecies range it is in. Two snakes that look identical are probably the same subspecies.

Go to the Pituophis Page from the Care Sheets Section of this website. Begin reading and/or looking through the spec sheets of the gophersnakes. They specifically mention the variability of some fo the gophernskes like catenifers, deserticola, affinis, and annectins. Ithink one of the spec sheets might not be there. There's a lot of information in those spec sheets.

Terry Parks

>>Too bad pedigrees for snakes aren't more popular. It sure would help matters. I was wondering if you could check out the Snake that I found trying to get into my house. It is on page two intitled "are girls allowed" June 30 and july 1st. I didn't have a very good camera so you can't see the mask very well but it's there. Does he look pure sonoran or is he an intergrade or what? I live in Dona Ana county NM, with Otero county about a block away, and El Paso TX a few miles south. I live on the east side of the Franklin mountains... if that helps. Chaparral is not always on the map.
>>
>>So are you saying that you can have two snakes that have the same markings and they will have different names depending on which locales they come from? Sorry bout all these questions. I know... it's PITiful.
>>
>>MissHisssss

Sorry bout the pictures. Someday I'll get some better ones taken. Sorry bout all the questions too. I'm just so used to knowing what I'm doing.... like with dogs. I know every breed there is, and within the breed I used to work with (Italian Greyhounds), I could even tell what dog belonged to what line just by looking at it. The snakes are my new adventure and I'm feeling really clumbsy. I'll go to the Pit page as you suggested. Thanks so much for you words, and your patients.

MissHisssss

Don't hesitate to ask questions when you have them. That's why thee forums exist. I was just trying to point you in a direction of some excellent reading material that pertains to some the your questions. I wasn't doing it to brush you off or duck your questions. The Pituophis Page is excellent reference material.

It's great to see someone take such a keene interest to learn about the w/c gophersnake you found. One of the greaat things you should see in this hobby is that most hobbyist take more interest in learning about the snake they keep.

Terry Parks

>>Sorry bout the pictures. Someday I'll get some better ones taken. Sorry bout all the questions too. I'm just so used to knowing what I'm doing.... like with dogs. I know every breed there is, and within the breed I used to work with (Italian Greyhounds), I could even tell what dog belonged to what line just by looking at it. The snakes are my new adventure and I'm feeling really clumbsy. I'll go to the Pit page as you suggested. Thanks so much for you words, and your patients.
>>
>>MissHisssss

Oh no.... there was NO WAY that I was thinking that you were giving me the brush off. I guess I didn't word myself correctly. I guess I was just in a hurry to get to the Pit page to further my study. I appreciate all your help so far, and feel confident that I can return for more. That's the impression I got from your words anyway, and I thank you.

MissHisssss

Thanks Terry, and everyone for thier discussion on this thread. I do believe that breeder I purchased this gopher from was on the up and up. He does breed albino (purple blotched) SD and said the parents will have striped, albinos in the same clutch. Jason's pic on 7/3 was from a het SD to a het SD which does look a lot like mine. I see what you mean by the stripes and blotches down the back. You're right though, with all the intergrades (naturally occuring) it is hard to pin point it.

My other SD are a snow and a normal-het for applegate albino from a different breeder.

Thanks to all for the advice on the bad girl behavior I keep boas, corns, milks, pythons and no one has ever displayed such behavior, which is sorta the reason she's soooo cool. I plan on working with her and I'm sure she'll calm down eventually.